So, what is it ? What is it supposed to solve in the first place ?
2014-02-06 Edgar L. Owen <[email protected]>: > Quentin, > > But it's NOT the case... > > Edgar > > > > On Thursday, February 6, 2014 10:52:58 AM UTC-5, Quentin Anciaux wrote: >> >> >> >> >> 2014-02-06 Jesse Mazer <[email protected]>: >> >> >>> >>> On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 9:01 AM, Edgar L. Owen <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> But recall that p-time is not a directly measurable quantity so >>>> "arbitrary precision" does not apply. You still haven't grasped the concept >>>> correctly. P-time has no direct measure, because the present moment is that >>>> in which all measures, including those of clock time, are computed. >>>> >>> >>> I don't recall you ever spelling that out in conversation with me, >>> thanks for clarifying. In the past people had asked you about how to >>> determine p-time and you had said things like "we should be able to compute >>> p-time from Omega, the curvature of the universe" (in the post at >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/everything-list@ >>> googlegroups.com/msg47450.html ). So if you now say that determining >>> which events are simultaneous in p-time is fundamentally impossible for any >>> being within the universe, that answers what I was wondering about in >>> question #1. >>> >> >> If that's the case... what good is it to entertain such "p-time"... it's >> useless. Predict nothing, cannot be measured. What is p-time supposed to >> solve ? >> >> >>> >>> Jesse >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Nevertheless the fact of existence of all observers and thus of >>>> everything in the present moment is a direct empirical observation. Just >>>> like consciousness it is not subject to measure, but that doesn't mean it >>>> doesn't exist. >>>> >>>> Edgar >>>> >>>> On Thursday, February 6, 2014 12:47:05 AM UTC-5, jessem wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 7:38 PM, meekerdb <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On 2/5/2014 9:31 AM, Jesse Mazer wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> --question 1 dealt with the question of how YOU would define p-time >>>>>> simultaneity in a cosmological model where there's no way to slice the 4D >>>>>> spacetime into a series of 3D surfaces such that the density of matter is >>>>>> perfectly uniform on each slice (and that uniform can be characterized by >>>>>> the parameter Omega), unlike in the simple FLRW model where matter is >>>>>> assumed to be distributed in this perfectly uniform way. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't see that perfect uniformity is necessary. We have calculated >>>>>> our epoch relative to the CMB as 13.8By. I assume any other scientific >>>>>> species in the universe could do the same and so say whether they were >>>>>> 'at >>>>>> the same time' as measured by expansion of the cosmos. I don't see how >>>>>> the >>>>>> existence of galaxies and galaxy clusters precludes this kind of >>>>>> measurement. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Using the CMB may give an approximate answer, but would you argue it >>>>> could distinguish between different simultaneity definitions that agree >>>>> approximately when averaged over large scales, but disagree somewhat about >>>>> the details of simultaneity in highly curved regions? For example, could >>>>> the CMB be used to define a unique definition of simultaneity in the >>>>> neighborhood of a black hole (where coordinate systems like Schwarzschild >>>>> coordinates and Eddington-Finkelstein coordinates and Kruskal-Szekeres >>>>> coordinates give very different definitions of simultaneity)? Edgar isn't >>>>> just claiming some approximate pragmatic truth about simultaneity, he's >>>>> claiming an absolute and exact truth about simultaneity in all >>>>> circumstances, I was asking if he thinks this truth can be empirically >>>>> determined to arbitrary precision even in principle, and if so what >>>>> empirical observations would be used. >>>>> >>>>> Jesse >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Brent >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy >> Batty/Rutger Hauer) >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
