2014-02-06 Edgar L. Owen <[email protected]>: > Quentin, > > For starters, as I've said on numerous occasions, it solves the question > of how observers can have different relativistic clock times in the same > present moment. >
It doesn't solve anything, because it's not a problem for relativity... I agree that solving a non-existent problem is easy.... but useless. > > Edgar > > > > On Thursday, February 6, 2014 1:33:02 PM UTC-5, Quentin Anciaux wrote: > >> I've read all of them, there is nothing about what it is supposed to >> solve... >> >> Please state it here and now... do not refer to inexistant post. >> >> >> 2014-02-06 Edgar L. Owen <[email protected]>: >> >> Quentin, >>> >>> Please refer to my extensive posts to Jesse for that... >>> >>> Edgar >>> >>> >>> On Thursday, February 6, 2014 1:21:13 PM UTC-5, Quentin Anciaux wrote: >>> >>>> So, what is it ? What is it supposed to solve in the first place ? >>>> >>>> >>>> 2014-02-06 Edgar L. Owen <[email protected]>: >>>> >>>> Quentin, >>>>> >>>>> But it's NOT the case... >>>>> >>>>> Edgar >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thursday, February 6, 2014 10:52:58 AM UTC-5, Quentin Anciaux wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 2014-02-06 Jesse Mazer <[email protected]>: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 9:01 AM, Edgar L. Owen <[email protected]>wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But recall that p-time is not a directly measurable quantity so >>>>>>>> "arbitrary precision" does not apply. You still haven't grasped the >>>>>>>> concept >>>>>>>> correctly. P-time has no direct measure, because the present moment is >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> in which all measures, including those of clock time, are computed. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't recall you ever spelling that out in conversation with me, >>>>>>> thanks for clarifying. In the past people had asked you about how to >>>>>>> determine p-time and you had said things like "we should be able to >>>>>>> compute >>>>>>> p-time from Omega, the curvature of the universe" (in the post at >>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/everything-list@googlegroups. >>>>>>> com/msg47450.html ). So if you now say that determining which >>>>>>> events are simultaneous in p-time is fundamentally impossible for any >>>>>>> being >>>>>>> within the universe, that answers what I was wondering about in >>>>>>> question #1. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> If that's the case... what good is it to entertain such "p-time"... >>>>>> it's useless. Predict nothing, cannot be measured. What is p-time >>>>>> supposed >>>>>> to solve ? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jesse >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Nevertheless the fact of existence of all observers and thus of >>>>>>>> everything in the present moment is a direct empirical observation. >>>>>>>> Just >>>>>>>> like consciousness it is not subject to measure, but that doesn't mean >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> doesn't exist. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Edgar >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thursday, February 6, 2014 12:47:05 AM UTC-5, jessem wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 7:38 PM, meekerdb <[email protected]>wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 2/5/2014 9:31 AM, Jesse Mazer wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> --question 1 dealt with the question of how YOU would define >>>>>>>>>> p-time simultaneity in a cosmological model where there's no way to >>>>>>>>>> slice >>>>>>>>>> the 4D spacetime into a series of 3D surfaces such that the density >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> matter is perfectly uniform on each slice (and that uniform can be >>>>>>>>>> characterized by the parameter Omega), unlike in the simple FLRW >>>>>>>>>> model >>>>>>>>>> where matter is assumed to be distributed in this perfectly uniform >>>>>>>>>> way. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I don't see that perfect uniformity is necessary. We have >>>>>>>>>> calculated our epoch relative to the CMB as 13.8By. I assume any >>>>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>>>> scientific species in the universe could do the same and so say >>>>>>>>>> whether >>>>>>>>>> they were 'at the same time' as measured by expansion of the cosmos. >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> don't see how the existence of galaxies and galaxy clusters >>>>>>>>>> precludes this >>>>>>>>>> kind of measurement. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Using the CMB may give an approximate answer, but would you argue >>>>>>>>> it could distinguish between different simultaneity definitions that >>>>>>>>> agree >>>>>>>>> approximately when averaged over large scales, but disagree somewhat >>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>> the details of simultaneity in highly curved regions? For example, >>>>>>>>> could >>>>>>>>> the CMB be used to define a unique definition of simultaneity in the >>>>>>>>> neighborhood of a black hole (where coordinate systems like >>>>>>>>> Schwarzschild >>>>>>>>> coordinates and Eddington-Finkelstein coordinates and Kruskal-Szekeres >>>>>>>>> coordinates give very different definitions of simultaneity)? Edgar >>>>>>>>> isn't >>>>>>>>> just claiming some approximate pragmatic truth about simultaneity, >>>>>>>>> he's >>>>>>>>> claiming an absolute and exact truth about simultaneity in all >>>>>>>>> circumstances, I was asking if he thinks this truth can be empirically >>>>>>>>> determined to arbitrary precision even in principle, and if so what >>>>>>>>> empirical observations would be used. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jesse >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Brent >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group >>>>>>>>>> /everything-list. >>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy >>>>>> Batty/Rutger Hauer) >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy >>>> Batty/Rutger Hauer) >>>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy >> Batty/Rutger Hauer) >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
