2014-02-07 Edgar L. Owen <[email protected]>: > Quentin, > > It IS a problem for reality and for relativity, because it exposes a > hidden assumption of relativity without which relativity doesn't make sense >
No, the only problem with relativity, is that you absolutely have no idea how it works, what you state is not a problem for relativity but only for you, it's obvious that the day the universe will burn to its frozen death, you will understand... for the nth time. Quentin > , that there must be a common present moment in which relativistic results > occur for those results to make sense and be meaningful, for the comparison > of different t values to occur. > > But it's clear from your comments you are here to flame rather than to > understand... > > Edgar > > On Thursday, February 6, 2014 6:45:56 PM UTC-5, Quentin Anciaux wrote: >> >> >> >> >> 2014-02-06 Edgar L. Owen <[email protected]>: >> >>> Quentin, >>> >>> For starters, as I've said on numerous occasions, it solves the >>> question of how observers can have different relativistic clock times in >>> the same present moment. >>> >> >> It doesn't solve anything, because it's not a problem for relativity... I >> agree that solving a non-existent problem is easy.... but useless. >> >> >>> >>> Edgar >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thursday, February 6, 2014 1:33:02 PM UTC-5, Quentin Anciaux wrote: >>> >>>> I've read all of them, there is nothing about what it is supposed to >>>> solve... >>>> >>>> Please state it here and now... do not refer to inexistant post. >>>> >>>> >>>> 2014-02-06 Edgar L. Owen <[email protected]>: >>>> >>>> Quentin, >>>>> >>>>> Please refer to my extensive posts to Jesse for that... >>>>> >>>>> Edgar >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thursday, February 6, 2014 1:21:13 PM UTC-5, Quentin Anciaux wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> So, what is it ? What is it supposed to solve in the first place ? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 2014-02-06 Edgar L. Owen <[email protected]>: >>>>>> >>>>>> Quentin, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But it's NOT the case... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Edgar >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thursday, February 6, 2014 10:52:58 AM UTC-5, Quentin Anciaux >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2014-02-06 Jesse Mazer <[email protected]>: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 9:01 AM, Edgar L. Owen <[email protected]>wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> But recall that p-time is not a directly measurable quantity so >>>>>>>>>> "arbitrary precision" does not apply. You still haven't grasped the >>>>>>>>>> concept >>>>>>>>>> correctly. P-time has no direct measure, because the present moment >>>>>>>>>> is that >>>>>>>>>> in which all measures, including those of clock time, are computed. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I don't recall you ever spelling that out in conversation with me, >>>>>>>>> thanks for clarifying. In the past people had asked you about how to >>>>>>>>> determine p-time and you had said things like "we should be able to >>>>>>>>> compute >>>>>>>>> p-time from Omega, the curvature of the universe" (in the post at >>>>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/everything-list@googlegroups. >>>>>>>>> com/msg47450.html ). So if you now say that determining which >>>>>>>>> events are simultaneous in p-time is fundamentally impossible for any >>>>>>>>> being >>>>>>>>> within the universe, that answers what I was wondering about in >>>>>>>>> question #1. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If that's the case... what good is it to entertain such "p-time"... >>>>>>>> it's useless. Predict nothing, cannot be measured. What is p-time >>>>>>>> supposed >>>>>>>> to solve ? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jesse >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Nevertheless the fact of existence of all observers and thus of >>>>>>>>>> everything in the present moment is a direct empirical observation. >>>>>>>>>> Just >>>>>>>>>> like consciousness it is not subject to measure, but that doesn't >>>>>>>>>> mean it >>>>>>>>>> doesn't exist. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Edgar >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, February 6, 2014 12:47:05 AM UTC-5, jessem wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 5, 2014 at 7:38 PM, meekerdb <[email protected]>wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 2/5/2014 9:31 AM, Jesse Mazer wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> --question 1 dealt with the question of how YOU would define >>>>>>>>>>>> p-time simultaneity in a cosmological model where there's no way >>>>>>>>>>>> to slice >>>>>>>>>>>> the 4D spacetime into a series of 3D surfaces such that the >>>>>>>>>>>> density of >>>>>>>>>>>> matter is perfectly uniform on each slice (and that uniform can be >>>>>>>>>>>> characterized by the parameter Omega), unlike in the simple FLRW >>>>>>>>>>>> model >>>>>>>>>>>> where matter is assumed to be distributed in this perfectly >>>>>>>>>>>> uniform way. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I don't see that perfect uniformity is necessary. We have >>>>>>>>>>>> calculated our epoch relative to the CMB as 13.8By. I assume any >>>>>>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>>>>>> scientific species in the universe could do the same and so say >>>>>>>>>>>> whether >>>>>>>>>>>> they were 'at the same time' as measured by expansion of the >>>>>>>>>>>> cosmos. I >>>>>>>>>>>> don't see how the existence of galaxies and galaxy clusters >>>>>>>>>>>> precludes this >>>>>>>>>>>> kind of measurement. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Using the CMB may give an approximate answer, but would you >>>>>>>>>>> argue it could distinguish between different simultaneity >>>>>>>>>>> definitions that >>>>>>>>>>> agree approximately when averaged over large scales, but disagree >>>>>>>>>>> somewhat >>>>>>>>>>> about the details of simultaneity in highly curved regions? For >>>>>>>>>>> example, >>>>>>>>>>> could the CMB be used to define a unique definition of simultaneity >>>>>>>>>>> in the >>>>>>>>>>> neighborhood of a black hole (where coordinate systems like >>>>>>>>>>> Schwarzschild >>>>>>>>>>> coordinates and Eddington-Finkelstein coordinates and >>>>>>>>>>> Kruskal-Szekeres >>>>>>>>>>> coordinates give very different definitions of simultaneity)? Edgar >>>>>>>>>>> isn't >>>>>>>>>>> just claiming some approximate pragmatic truth about simultaneity, >>>>>>>>>>> he's >>>>>>>>>>> claiming an absolute and exact truth about simultaneity in all >>>>>>>>>>> circumstances, I was asking if he thinks this truth can be >>>>>>>>>>> empirically >>>>>>>>>>> determined to arbitrary precision even in principle, and if so what >>>>>>>>>>> empirical observations would be used. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Jesse >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Brent >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>>> it, send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups. >>>>>>>>>>>> com. >>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group >>>>>>>>>>>> /everything-list. >>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/grou >>>>>>>>>>>> ps/opt_out. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group >>>>>>>>>> /everything-list. >>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list >>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy >>>>>>>> Batty/Rutger Hauer) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy >>>>>> Batty/Rutger Hauer) >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy >>>> Batty/Rutger Hauer) >>>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy >> Batty/Rutger Hauer) >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
