On Saturday, March 8, 2014 2:13:39 AM UTC, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > > Brent, > > But we CAN see atoms. They are routinely imaged. That's just a matter of > using a powerful enough microscope. But we can't see empty space no matter > how good a microscope or telescope we make. > > That's why I pointed out it's an ontological difference. Seeing atoms is > just a matter of using the right observation device, but seeing empty space > is impossible with ANY observational device no matter how powerful.... > > Agree? > > Edgar > > > On Friday, March 7, 2014 8:50:03 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> On 3/7/2014 4:46 PM, LizR wrote: >> >> On 8 March 2014 11:03, meekerdb <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> On 3/7/2014 12:52 PM, LizR wrote: >>> >>> On 8 March 2014 01:21, Edgar L. Owen <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> All, >>>> >>>> An empty space within which events occur does not exist. There is no >>>> universal fixed pre-existing empty space common to all events and >>>> observers. >>>> >>>> Why? Because we cannot establish its existence by any observation >>>> whatsoever. We NEVER observe such an empty space. All we actually observe >>>> is interactions between particulate matter and energy. In fact, all >>>> observations ARE interactions of particulate matter or energy, they are >>>> never observations of empty space itself. >>>> >>> >>> Observations are not in fact observations of interactions between >>> matter and energy, either. They are in fact interactions inside our brains, >>> hypothetically the reception of nerve signals by our brain cells. >>> >>> >>> That seems like an inconsistent way to put it; sort of talking at two >>> different levels of description and saying one is wrong because I can talk >>> at the other. The interactions inside my brain are a lot more hypothetical >>> than observation of words on my computer screen. "I'm observing a computer >>> screen." is pretty concrete and direct. On a physical model I could say >>> "Photons from excited phosphor atoms are being absorbed by chromophores in >>> my retina which are sending neural signals into my brain." Or eschewing >>> physicalism, "Information merging into my thought processes via preception, >>> instantiates the thought "I'm observing a computer screen"."...which pretty >>> much brings me back to just "I'm observing a computer screen." A circle of >>> explanation. >>> >>> My point was that Edgar can't use a similar argument to refute the >> existence of space. He argued that we never observe space directly, and >> goes on to suggest that therefore we can't assume it exists. I merely >> pointed out that the same logic applies to all observations, and therefore >> we can't assume *from observation* that anything exists. The existence >> of space, matter, etc, are all hypotheses we have formed to account for >> what happens inside our brains, assuming it does happen inside our brains >> (another hypothesis). >> >> His argument is similar to saying "I can't see atoms, therefore they >> don't exist." >> >> >> Then I agree with your point. >> >> But it's interesting then to consider what do we "observe". It's >> certainly not brain functions. There seems to be a certain theory of the >> world that's hardwired into us by evolution such that we see macroscopic >> objects that have definite positions and we directly experience time >> lapse. Since that's what we're given, then theorizing has to start from >> there. >> > Yes and No. You do have to start from there if that's what your brain already sees. But that doesn't mean you have to base your theory on what your brain already sees. You could reason something like "if all of that in my head is hard coded what my brain sees, then what else is hard coded along with it, I haven't realized, but that would get built into my theory? " If you reasoned like that, you could have the idea that "I can build a rules based method approach to starting my theory that absolutely minimizes the dependencies on that shit in my head"
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