On 08 Mar 2014, at 14:27, Edgar L. Owen wrote:
Bruno,
Yes, of course I agree the physical universe is not primitive.
OK. So what is primitive?
How many times do I have to say that it arises from computational
space before it registers with you?
I got that, but I still miss your definition of "computational".
All I can say, is that it is highly non standard, and, well, that you
have not yet defined it. As it seems to be your fundamental primitive
things, you have to defined it clearly, or you can prove everything
you want.
I've also said over and over that the "physical universe" as we
imagine it is NOT "out there".
So the p-time is not there too. OK?
The physical universe as we imagine it is IN THERE, in our minds.
It's how we internally represent the logico-mathematical universe
which is what is 'out there' but which we are also local parts of in
computational space.
I can be OK, with this. It follows from computationalism indeed, and
then it follows from arithmetic also.
I have no idea what you mean by "numbers indexical personal views".
It is the indexicals, like now, here, "I" (in 1p, and 3p) notions that
we get from the mathematical theory of self-reference, as developed by
sound classical universal Turing machine (enough rich), as shown by
Gödel, Löb, Solovay, and which is captured by the modal logic G and G*
and their intensional (modal, code-related) variants. I explain this a
lot here, and you might consult my older posts, or my papers, or the
literature (mathematical logic), or wait when we come back on this,
as we do that recurrently.
You seem to ignore that a tiny part of the arithmetical reality
contains a full computational space, with both the terminating and non
terminating computations well emulated, and the UDA explains why our
consciousness differentiates from that structure. Then AUDA shows how
that is testable, and partially tested.
Bruno
On Saturday, March 8, 2014 3:46:05 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 08 Mar 2014, at 01:02, Edgar L. Owen wrote:
Brent,
Yes, exactly. The agreement of nearly all minds on the values of
empirical observations is truly remarkable. The vast edifice of
science whose accuracy is confirmed by the incredibly complex
technologies based upon it would not exist if this were not so. So
there is quite obviously some actual universe 'out there' on which
minds in general agree no matter how minds work...
But you do agree that such "physical universe out there" is not
primitive, and arise from the "computational space".
Then if you use "computation" in the standard sense (Church thesis,
etc.), then you get a precise explanation where the illusion of "
primitively real universe" come from. Both time and space, and
energy, comes from numbers indexical personal views. You might
follow the current explanation or read the papers. It makes
computationalism testable (and partially tested).
Bruno
Edgar
On Friday, March 7, 2014 5:03:19 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote:
On 3/7/2014 12:52 PM, LizR wrote:
On 8 March 2014 01:21, Edgar L. Owen <[email protected]> wrote:
All,
An empty space within which events occur does not exist. There is
no universal fixed pre-existing empty space common to all events
and observers.
Why? Because we cannot establish its existence by any observation
whatsoever. We NEVER observe such an empty space. All we actually
observe is interactions between particulate matter and energy. In
fact, all observations ARE interactions of particulate matter or
energy, they are never observations of empty space itself.
Observations are not in fact observations of interactions between
matter and energy, either. They are in fact
interactions inside our brains, hypothetically the reception of
nerve signals by our brain cells.
That seems like an inconsistent way to put it; sort of talking at
two different levels of description and saying one is wrong because
I can talk at the other. The interactions inside my brain are a
lot more hypothetical than observation of words on my computer
screen. "I'm observing a computer screen." is pretty concrete and
direct. On a physical model I could say "Photons from excited
phosphor atoms are being absorbed by chromophores in my retina
which are sending neural signals into my brain." Or eschewing
physicalism, "Information merging into my thought processes via
preception, instantiates the thought "I'm observing a computer
screen"."...which pretty much brings me back to just "I'm observing
a computer screen." A circle of explanation.
Brent
The idea of the existence of matter and energy, space and time (or
more modernly, mass-energy and space-time) is of course a
hypothesis which we use to account for the apparent regularities
in our observations. You can't throw out a hypothesis on the basis
that we can't observe its components directly because we don't
observe any of reality directly, so on that basis you end up with
solipsism.
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