Bruno, Yes, of course I agree the physical universe is not primitive. How many times do I have to say that it arises from computational space before it registers with you?
I've also said over and over that the "physical universe" as we imagine it is NOT "out there". The physical universe as we imagine it is IN THERE, in our minds. It's how we internally represent the logico-mathematical universe which is what is 'out there' but which we are also local parts of in computational space. I have no idea what you mean by "numbers indexical personal views". Edgar On Saturday, March 8, 2014 3:46:05 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 08 Mar 2014, at 01:02, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > > Brent, > > Yes, exactly. The agreement of nearly all minds on the values of empirical > observations is truly remarkable. The vast edifice of science whose > accuracy is confirmed by the incredibly complex technologies based upon it > would not exist if this were not so. So there is quite obviously some > actual universe 'out there' on which minds in general agree no matter how > minds work... > > > But you do agree that such "physical universe out there" is not primitive, > and arise from the "computational space". > > Then if you use "computation" in the standard sense (Church thesis, etc.), > then you get a precise explanation where the illusion of " primitively real > universe" come from. Both time and space, and energy, comes from numbers > indexical personal views. You might follow the current explanation or read > the papers. It makes computationalism testable (and partially tested). > > Bruno > > > > > > Edgar > > > > On Friday, March 7, 2014 5:03:19 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> On 3/7/2014 12:52 PM, LizR wrote: >> >> On 8 March 2014 01:21, Edgar L. Owen <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> All, >>> >>> An empty space within which events occur does not exist. There is no >>> universal fixed pre-existing empty space common to all events and observers. >>> >>> Why? Because we cannot establish its existence by any observation >>> whatsoever. We NEVER observe such an empty space. All we actually observe >>> is interactions between particulate matter and energy. In fact, all >>> observations ARE interactions of particulate matter or energy, they are >>> never observations of empty space itself. >>> >> >> Observations are not in fact observations of interactions between >> matter and energy, either. They are in fact interactions inside our brains, >> hypothetically the reception of nerve signals by our brain cells. >> >> >> That seems like an inconsistent way to put it; sort of talking at two >> different levels of description and saying one is wrong because I can talk >> at the other. The interactions inside my brain are a lot more hypothetical >> than observation of words on my computer screen. "I'm observing a computer >> screen." is pretty concrete and direct. On a physical model I could say >> "Photons from excited phosphor atoms are being absorbed by chromophores in >> my retina which are sending neural signals into my brain." Or eschewing >> physicalism, "Information merging into my thought processes via preception, >> instantiates the thought "I'm observing a computer screen"."...which pretty >> much brings me back to just "I'm observing a computer screen." A circle of >> explanation. >> >> Brent >> >> >> The idea of the existence of matter and energy, space and time (or more >> modernly, mass-energy and space-time) is of course a hypothesis which we >> use to account for the apparent regularities in our observations. You can't >> throw out a hypothesis on the basis that we can't observe its components >> directly because we don't observe any of reality directly, so on that basis >> you end up with solipsism. >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] <javascript:>. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]<javascript:> > . > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
