On 8/7/2014 5:21 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote:
On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 8:58 PM, meekerdb <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:On 8/6/2014 7:02 AM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote:On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 3:58 AM, meekerdb <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: What does level of substitution have to do with it. You've defined the correct level substitution as one below which consciousness is unchanged. So the the definition already requires that we know what it means for a consciousness to be the same, i.e. unchanged.Then the 1p recognizance criteria is very simple. All the copies are declared the same person as the one copied, except that now they differentiate. And that can help to understand that we are all already the same person, having multiplied and differentiate.I guess it would if I were a copy of somebody.Then computer science shows that there is indeed a universal notion of first person, given by the knowability (non arithmetic) operator, provided by the definition of knowledge by Theaetetus.Having a notion of person doesn't imply that all persons are the same person. I don't see why all the convolution in this thread around ambiguity of notion of person is required. It just makes unnecessarily complex what seems ambiguous at the start. Assume some emergence phenomenon and you risk reductionism at fundamental problem of identity, and the usual fascisms of discrimination can follow. Assume some universal person and you aren't a step further dealing with problems of evil and difference. What "universal person" has that "emergence" doesn't is a reason to foster empathy in fundamental/primitive sense, underneath some utility derivative from evolution, as is the case with some emergence interpretations. But does this even matter? The Bee Gees made approximation of stating this ambiguity and sold millions of records with the kitschy: How deep is your love I really need to learn 'Cause we're living in a world of fools Breaking us down When they all should let us be We belong to you and me And because it's a kitschy song, no need to take literally or feel smart :-) Like Telmo said, if I recall correctly, it's super easy to fall into taking sides on these issues without knowing it... which I guess I do too.emergence->reductionism->fascism wholism->empathy Yeah, I guess you do. But you overlook that the fascists regarded the state as a superorganism so that each person was part of the same "being", while the liberal democracies held that individuals are the locus of values.Then surely a liberal democracy is incompatible with drug prohibition or total surveillance, correct?
That wouldn't follow just from the idea that individuals are locus of values. You would have to add that individuals are the sole judges of what is good for themselves. I think that's a very good principle, but not an absolute one. We don't, for example, suppose it applies to children. There are some good reasons to prohibit or discourage very addictive and harmful drugs (e.g. tobacco) because once addicted a person may not be the best judge of what it good for themself.
Total surveillance is compatible with persons being the locus of values and with being the best judge of their own good. If surveillance were used *only* suppress violent crime and to rescue people from accidents, what would be the objection? The problem is that it amplifies the power of the community to impose conformity, and people are not very good at forgoing the use of power.
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