Liz did you ever get to grips with the counterfactuals business? In case not, the way I would summarize it is this. Consider a computer game in which you fly through some 3D landscape. The game is "intelligent" because it can respond to whatever you do with the controls. If you fly in any direction, it accurately changes the rendered environment to show you what you see from the new position. The intuition behind computationalism is that this intelligent responsiveness is what defines consciousness. But now I can imagine recording someone's flight through the game environment and replaying it. If I watched the recording, thinking I was playing the game, and moved the controls in just such a way that the recording showed me the right scenes by pure chance, I would think the computer was being intelligent, when in fact it wasn't. Even though it moves through the correct sequence of visual states, the recording has no intelligent capacity to deal with counterfactuals, i.e., the possibility of my moving the controls in some other way from the ones that happen to coincide with the recording's visuals. So consciousness can't supervene on the mere sequence of physical states. It has to supervene on more than that, the actual (abstract) computation including counterfactuals. Maybe you already got all that, but I thought I'd spell it out... ;)
On Tuesday, August 12, 2014 9:22:44 AM UTC+10, Liz R wrote: > > Having now read the paper, ISTM that the "counterfactual" part of the > argument is the only part that I *really* don't get. Or rather ISTM that > it demonstrates that consciousness can't supervene on physical > computational states, because those states can't know anything about these > counterfactuals, which by definition don't happen. Then again, I also have > some trouble with the multiverse part. A MV "is" a quantum computer? How do > we know that, without even knowing the laws of physics? Is this something > to do with Feynman's idea about a QC as something that could perform exact > physical simulations? (if I got that right) > > > On 12 August 2014 11:03, LizR <[email protected] <javascript:>> wrote: > >> I have never got this idea of "counterfactual correctness". It seems to >> be that the argument goes ... >> >> Assume computational process A is conscious >> Take process B, which replays A - B passes through the same machine >> states as A, but it doesn't work them out, it's driven by a recording of A >> - B isn't conscious because it isn't counterfactually correct. >> >> I can't see how this works. (Except insofar as if we assume consciousness >> doesn't supervene on material processes, then neither A nor B is conscious, >> they are just somehow attached to conscious experiences generated >> elsewhere, maybe by a UD.) >> >> >> >> >> On 12 August 2014 09:40, LizR <[email protected] <javascript:>> wrote: >> >>> Got it, thanks. Not too long so I will be able to read it in the near >>> future :-) >>> >>> I hope that is just an honest mistake, Bruno, and no one has been >>> messing with your email deliberately. Do you have another email you can >>> use? (e.g. a GMail one) >>> >>> >>> On 11 August 2014 20:43, Bruno Marchal <[email protected] <javascript:>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> On 11 Aug 2014, at 06:42, Russell Standish wrote: >>>> >>>> Apologies to everybody. For some reason, when I clicked "publish", >>>>> Wordpress posted an earlier draft of the post, not the most recent one >>>>> I was working on. >>>>> >>>>> I have now restored the correct version of the post - follow the link >>>>> "Draft paper here" to find the paper. >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I got it. I will read it. >>>> >>>> ... >>>> >>>> It looks now, that I have lost the ability to read my mails. Apparently >>>> someone deleted my password at my ULB account. It might take some time >>>> before I can read my mail again. >>>> >>>> Sorry. It is a good thing that I got your text before this happened. I >>>> might soon been unable to send message, too. >>>> >>>> Bruno >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Cheers >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 08:08:55PM -0700, meekerdb wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On 8/10/2014 3:38 PM, Russell Standish wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> As long, long time promised, I now have a draft of my "MGA revisited" >>>>>>> paper for critical comment. I have uploaded this to my blog, which >>>>>>> gives people the ability to attach comments. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.hpcoders.com.au/blog/?p=73 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Whilst I'm happy I now understand the issue, I still not happy with >>>>>>> how I've expressed it - the text could still do with some work. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So let the games begin! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I went to your blog and I found: >>>>>> >>>>>> /In this paper, we reexamine Bruno Marchal's Movie Graph// >>>>>> //Argument, which demonstrates a basic incompatibility between// >>>>>> //computationalism and materialism. We discover that the >>>>>> incompatibility// >>>>>> //is only manifest in singular classical-like universes. If we >>>>>> accept// >>>>>> //that we live in a Multiverse, then the incompatibility goes away, >>>>>> but// >>>>>> //in that case another line of argument shows that with// >>>>>> //computationalism, fundamental, or primitive materiality has no >>>>>> causal// >>>>>> //influence on what is observed, which must must be derivable from >>>>>> basic// >>>>>> //arithmetic properties./ >>>>>> >>>>>> But I didn't find "this paper"? >>>>>> >>>>>> Brent >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to [email protected] <javascript:>. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >>>>>> <javascript:>. >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> ---------------- >>>>> Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) >>>>> Principal, High Performance Coders >>>>> Visiting Professor of Mathematics [email protected] >>>>> <javascript:> >>>>> University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au >>>>> >>>>> Latest project: The Amoeba's Secret >>>>> (http://www.hpcoders.com.au/AmoebasSecret.html) >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> ---------------- >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to [email protected] <javascript:>. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >>>>> <javascript:>. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>> >>>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected] <javascript:>. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >>>> <javascript:>. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> >> > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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