On 12 Oct 2014, at 17:02, Samiya Illias wrote:
On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 11:38 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 09 Oct 2014, at 21:06, Samiya Illias wrote:
On 09-Oct-2014, at 11:42 pm, Platonist Guitar Cowboy <[email protected]
> wrote:
On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 8:20 PM, Samiya Illias <[email protected]
> wrote:
Hmm. Please read this blogpost and let me know if this meets your
'demonstrating factual accuracy in this sense here, of course.':
http://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2014/06/dhu-al-qarnayn-polar-regions-of-earth.html?m=1
You changed the subject and focus. Why?
I did not refer to your blog but to this:
http://www.foundalis.com/rlg/Quran_and_science.htm
You said you disagree and I asked why, which you ignored.
In the foundalis link you sent, under 1.2, it quotes Quran Chapter
18 and goes on to discuss the verses in it. It discusses Dhul
Qarnayn's travels. Therefore I sent my blogpost' link. I have
presented my study and interpretation of other aspects of Chapter
18 also in my blog listed under blog archive. I sent that link just
as an example.
If you find the approach not critical enough, perhaps you can do it
in a more scientific manner, if it interests you.
I can critically try to understand the Quran, looking up meanings
and science research on the topic, but I cannot take the
falsifiable approach simply because I'm convinced that the Arabic
text of the Quran is from God, the Master-Creator, while scientific
knowledge is what we are discovering. So, for me personally, the
scripture takes precedence.
This is problematic. You leave the scientific attitude, and you make
a quasi infinite argument per authority error. Like the catholic
church which at least condemn literalism. You might be the one doing
the blasphemy, asserting knowing a public relationship with god.
It is equivalent with: by definition I do right and you do wrong.
Your literalism is equivalent with insulting all believers not
sharing your assumption, pursuing different ways.
It would be more appropriate to search on what we all share about God.
I advocate the scientific attitude in theology. Literalism does not
help. How could we ever "religare" the literalists in different
traditions? How can you be literalist about a subject as complex as
God, known for having no real name, no image, being inconceivable,
etc. Your attitude prevents the doubt which makes possible the
progress. I think.
Bruno
Bruno, you misunderstand me. I speak for my personal self only.
OK. This is not entirely obvious. Typically, we can already explain
(using some "reasonable theory/hypothesis) that in the theological
field, public beliefs and private beliefs can be different. It is part
of the truth that some truth can be known, but not in a public way.
Worse, some truth becomes false when asserted publicly.
Having studied the Quran and using science as a tool to help
understand it, I am now fully convinced that the Arabic text of the
Quran is indeed revealed scripture.
Hmm...
So, my attitude towards it is one of humble submission. There are
many verses that are still not clear to me, as I am only human and
limited by my knowledge and understanding, yet as a believer I try
to look for scientific research and knowledge to help me better
understand the verses, instead of rejecting it simply because it is
not according to my knowledge or popular current theories.
So, why not remain open to the possibility that some verse are perhaps
from God, but also perhaps from the devil or from some humans, as you
acknowledge not understanding them? Why extrapolate?
I understand the desire that all verse comes from God, but if you want
use science, you must free yourself from wishful thinking, I think.
Also, it is important to remember that the verses we speak and try
to understand are mostly about creation.
I am not entirely sure. Not literally.
So, its basically an exploration and discovery of and about nature.
Only a few verses give any idea about God. In fact, a verse clearly
states that there is nothing like God, so we really cannot imagine
or speculate about God.
But this is what you do publicly, by asserting that you are convinced
that God is the literal author of the Quran.
We can only observe and wonder about the majesty of God through the
creation and check how factually accurate the scripture is about
creation.
You need also to introspect. What you see can be a dream, or a show by
the "devil". Aristotelian believes that seeing is proof, but
Platonicien believes that seeing can be an illusion.
I understand that each one of us is at a different level of
knowledge and understanding, as well as in their own unique journey
of making sense of it all. It is perfectly okay for you and others
to doubt and put the verses to the falsification test.
OK. Nice.
I believe that if you're earnestly looking for the truth, God will
lead you to it.
I believe this too.
Also, if someone does not wish to believe, God will never force
faith on anyone.
Only for a finite period of time. because truth get transparent when
the lies die, and in the limit, they all die (I am alas not yet really
sure of this ...).
Bruno
Samiya
Samiya
Concerning your link, I'd see that as less on-topic for following
simple reason:
That's interpretation without a critical position against it, and
this is perhaps why there is a disconnect between some of your
claims and how some members, including myself, react.
A positive aspect of science is that, when done correctly, we are
not forced to trust interpretations. That's why it would be more
instructive for me to see you address the points in the Foundalis
link, rather than what you have interpreted and convinced yourself
of already.
It creates perspective, that would enrich your points perhaps. As
a tool, science tests ideas and reasoning; and contrasting a
perspective that differs from yours, and you refuting it, would
tell me much more than personal interpretation you link to above.
PGC
Samiya
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