On 14 Oct 2014, at 09:16, Richard Ruquist wrote:
On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 11:42 PM, Samiya Illias <[email protected]
> wrote:
On 14-Oct-2014, at 5:03 am, John Clark <[email protected]> wrote:
On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 Samiya Illias <[email protected]> wrote:
>> If the Quran has told Muslims to "put terror into the hearts of
the unbelievers" and if the Quran really is the word of God then
you will be in a constant state of war until the last unbeliever
has been converted or murdered.
> Incorrect. God and his angels will put terror in the hearts.
Then God isn't doing a very good job, I guess He needs
reinforcements. Neither God nor His angels puts terror into my
heart, but religious nincompoops with a fetish for dynamite do.
Are you at war with Islam? Why should God put terror in your heart?
He knows your innermost thoughts and knows how honestly or otherwise
you seek to understand and make meaning of it all. God knows the set
of circumstances He put you in the world with, including your family
and education and other influences, and He knows and understands
what and how you think and react and why. We do not know whether
your heart is one day meant to acknowledge and appreciate God or
not. It's between you and God.
It is important to also keep in mind that the Messengers were sent
to people who not only did not believe in monotheism, but as a
nation these people were committing many transgressions and sins,
and some of the greatest of Muslims were from people with such
backgrounds.
If I were to cite an example from Prophet Mohammad's time, Omar was
an ardent disbeliever in the message, very angered by the prophetic
mission and was on his way to murder the prophet. Yet, God saw good
in him and guided him to faith. He went on to become the second
leader of the Muslims after the prophet's death. There are many
historical records about him, both pro and anti, depending on who
wrote it, you may wish to look them up.
> Muslims are not asked to do that.
And yet Muslims are told to:
"Say to the unbelievers: 'You shall be overthrown and driven into
Hell--an evil resting place!'" .
And
"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people. They
will spare no pains to corrupt you. They desire nothing but your
ruin. Their hatred is evident from what they utter with their
mouths, but greater is the hatred which their breasts conceal" .
And
"Believers, do not seek the friendship of the infidels"
> According to the Quran [...]
Samiya, this is 21st century, other than the fact that you mommy
and daddy told you it was true why would you care what the Quran
said?
> God doesn't force faith on anyone.
But Muslims and Christians do.
> In fact, on the contrary, those who do not want to believe, God
withholds guidance from them.
What I want to know is why a omnipotent being would consider a
belief (or the desire to have a belief) in something for which
there is no evidence a virtue, in fact the very greatest virtue
there is. It's childishly easy to understand why a bipedal hominid
like Jesus or Mohamed or any mountebank who wished to gain some
control over his fellow hominids would push this idea, but I don't
see why a omnipotent being would.
> if you put one toe out of line a loving God with torture you in
ways beyond imagining for a infinite number of years.
> Well, if you do not believe in God or after-life, why do you
worry about it?
I worry that God will torment me in the afterlife about as much as
I worry that the big bad wolf will huff and puff and blow my house
down, however I do worry that other people worry about it because
nothing in human history has causes people to do more stupid and
destructive things than religion.
>> I think the God of the Quran is the second most unpleasant
character in all of fiction, only the God of the Old Testament is
worse.
> I think Allah ( The Deity) is the most loving and compassionate.
Well you'd better think that God is most loving and compassionate
because if you don't your religion says that most loving and
compassionate being will torture you in ways too horrible for our
present human minds to contemplate. And a most loving and
compassionate God will continue performing His butchery on you not
for a million years, or a billion years or a trillion years but for
a INFINITE* number of years.
God sent us in this world and provides sustenance for all of us
whether we remember Him or not. He gives freely to all in countless
ways: the oxygen we breathe, the water we drink, the food we eat,
the education that feeds our minds, the knowledge and feelings that
nourish our hearts, the natural beauty that provide for our senses
of sight and hearing and so on. God also provides wealth and comfort
in varying degrees. God does not discriminate on the basis of faith
in this world, as here we all have equal opportunity to believe or
reject. And God keeps inviting to forgiveness. However, God warns of
a Day when all mankind has a meeting with God, an appointment that
must be kept, and God warns that after that God will forget those
who forgot God in this world, and so they will suffer in Hell with
nothing but scalding water to drink and food that will not nourish.
The beauty, delights, comforts and nourishment of this world are
only a preview of the appreciation of God for those who appreciate
Him in this world, without being able to directly see Him, but
realise, acknowledge and appreciate God's existence through His signs.
*Scripture does not report if the infinity is denumerable or if the
number of years in hell being tortured by a loving and
compassionate God can be put into a one to one correspondence with
the set of Real Numbers.
> It is of no benefit to Allah to punish anyone
And yet according to both Islam and Christianity God uses all of
his infinite power to punish people for the slightest violation of
one of His many monumentally silly rules. When you look at the way
God behaves in the Quran (or the Bible) can you detect any
fundamental difference from the way Satin behaves? The only
difference I can see is that God won the war and is a little more
powerful, so the only reason to join God's team rather than that of
His competition is that God is a bigger school yard bully than Satin.
> the doors for repentance are open till a person is about to die.
It's only when the veil is lifted and a person sees the angel of
death that the chance to repent and believe is over.
So if a man was a good person for 80 years but in the last 3
seconds of his life during his death agony in a concentration camp
he screamed "damn God" he goes to hell. But if Hitler said "there
is no God but Allah and Mohamed was his prophet" one second before
he put a pistol in his mouth and pulled the trigger then Hitler
goes to Heaven.
God knows what's in our hearts and minds, and is not deceived by our
appearances and our lies. He grants faith only to the willing heart.
We have no way of knowing whose faith is accepted or otherwise,
hence cannot comment on it. I just pray that we die as Muslims, well
pleased with God and God well pleased with us. Amen
From my experience with a channel of a recently died person,
it appears that all such persons have the ability to read our minds.
I of course have no proof that such is true,
but it does seem consistent with a mind/body reality.
But the point is that if such is true
then knowing "what's in our hearts and minds" is not limited to god.
That does not follow. It could be that dead person becomes God back
again, or that some people does that when they are lucky enough to
have lived their last incarnation :)
If so we on earth must be great entertainment for the dead.
Yes, but there are too much advertising!
Bruno
Richard
Samiya
Well.. I guess it's no dumber than lots of other religious ideas.
John K Clark
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