On Sunday, November 9, 2014, David Nyman <[email protected] <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> wrote:
> On 8 November 2014 07:54, LizR <[email protected]> wrote: > > Are not the relations between the subsystems part of the ontology? >>> >> >> Explicitly so in arithmetical realism, I would say. >> > > Not really. Perhaps I could respond both to you and Brent in one here. I'm > trying to make an explicit distinction between an assumed ontology and its > (possible) epistemological consequences. In comp, the assumed ontology is > restricted to basic arithmetical relations; physics likewise is a search > for a fundamental level of explanation in terms of which everything else > can explicitly (at least in principle) be rendered. Of course, one can > speak in terms of systems and sub-systems composed of such basic entities > and relations. But it is surely a guiding principle of reductive > explanation that such composites, and the relations between them, must > ultimately be exhaustively accountable in terms of the fundamental > ontological assumptions. If that were not the case, the attempted > "reduction" would merely have been unsuccessful. > > Indeed it is only in terms of some explicit point of view that we are ever > forced to contemplate a strong form of emergence, or "realism", about any > level of composition over and above the reductive base. Strictly speaking, > composite systems and relations are *epistemologically* real, rather than > ontologically so, in any strong sense. In fact so-called "weak emergence" > isn't really emergence at all as, objectively speaking, nothing is to be > conceived as being "there" over and above the basic entities and their > relations. > OK so far, I think. I confess I find your idea-laden sentences difficult at times. > So my point is that it is simply self-defeating to deny that there is in > fact any such thing as epistemological realism, as Graziano explicitly > does. In attempting to do so, he simply cuts the ground from under his own > claim. > On my reading, Graziano agrees with what you said above about weak emergence, and claims that therefore consciousness does not exist. But that's just a manner of speaking. -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
