2015-01-10 23:52 GMT+01:00 Quentin Anciaux <[email protected]>: > > > 2015-01-10 23:49 GMT+01:00 John Clark <[email protected]>: > >> On Sat, Jan 10, 2015 , Alberto G. Corona <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> >>> > But trade need an environment where some force and some love are >>> necessary. Trade without enforcement of contracts does not work. >>> >> >> If you and I are in a business relationship and we both make money it >> would be foolish of me to cheat you on a deal, I might make a little more >> money today but having destroyed our partnership I will have lost the money >> I would have made tomorrow and in all future days. In addition if I gain a >> reputation of having cheated my partner nobody else is going to want to do >> business with me. >> > > > Strange the world does not work like that... you can cheat as long as > you're more powerful than the one you've betrayed... that's how it works > unfortunately... > > Exactly there a number of ways by means of which a rational agent can obtain much more by exploiting others than by means of trade. To make things stable you need something more. A purpose beyond the market, that I symbolize with force and love: You need a non individualistic religion or ideology call whatever you like from which would develop institutions that may make stable the win-win collaboration.
If anyone is interested, this problem appears at different scales of the evolution. All levels: molecular, genes, cells, pluricelulars and societies need mechanism cohesion and destruction of deletereous behaviours. > >> John K Clark >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> Neither work without some sincere love for what one does and for the >>> well being of the client. trade without force need an utopic quantity of >>> love. trade without love need big quantity of force. >>> >>> It is a pity to see all these modern ideologies that are nothing but >>> simplifications and adaptations of Christian concepts. No political system >>> is better than other. The Christian call for a personal revolution, called >>> conversion, to change what is around and have a better society, not a >>> political change. Paul called for the obedience of the Cesar, and the >>> Cesar at that time was Nero. Only by the example or testimony of each one >>> that changes the people around, the system will mutate to a better one. >>> Even if formally does not change. And the contrary the better political >>> system will decay if the people do evil. No society will be free from >>> corruption since it is in human nature. >>> >>> In contrast the liberal sectarians of the ilustration and the french >>> revolution though that a political change would change fundamentally the >>> society for a better one without previously changing the people. That does >>> not work. >>> >>> After that, the socialist sectarians fo the comunist revolution though >>> that a violent social change would create a new Man. That didn't work too. >>> >>> What is next? the sectarian culturalist though.... >>> >>> >>> All of them are bad and cheap copies of the Christian conception of >>> salvation, escatology etc. >>> >>> But it is better to call things by his name. Democracy is an ideological >>> lie. There is no such thing as democracy. There is the law of majority. and >>> the result is not what the majority think, but what the elite -that they >>> admire and obey- think. At the end the formal system does not matter >>> >>> >>> 2015-01-10 19:40 GMT+01:00 John Clark <[email protected]>: >>> >>>> On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 4:08 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List >>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> > Functioning anarchy would require a level of individual ethics that >>>>> does not yet exist >>>>> >>>> >>>> No, it's socialism that won't work unless everybody is a saint, and >>>> that's why socialist are always observed to be in a constant state of >>>> righteous indignation; people aren't behaving as he wants then to behave >>>> and as they must behave for his system to function. In general I can only >>>> think of 3 ways to get anybody to do anything, force, love, or trade. I >>>> think most of us would agree that all else being equal force is the least >>>> desirable of the three. Love is very nice and it works for some things but >>>> any economic system that must rely on people loving each other is just not >>>> going to work. So unless somebody knows of a fourth way that I haven't >>>> thought of there is only one thing left. >>>> >>>> The farmer grows my food, the trucker moves my food and the grocer >>>> sells my food, I didn't make them do it and none of these people love me, >>>> yet the free market plunges them into a conspiracy to put food on my >>>> table. Capitalism can efficiently create wealth even if everybody is just >>>> looking out for themselves, I know of no other economic system that can do >>>> that. >>>> >>>> John K Clark >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Alberto. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > > > -- > All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy > Batty/Rutger Hauer) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
