On 2/10/2015 10:11 PM, Jason Resch wrote:
On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 12:03 AM, meekerdb <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:On 2/10/2015 9:40 PM, Jason Resch wrote:On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 8:35 PM, meekerdb <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: On 2/10/2015 5:29 PM, LizR wrote:On 5 February 2015 at 09:19, meekerdb <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: On 2/4/2015 11:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:On 03 Feb 2015, at 20:13, Jason Resch wrote:I agree with John. If consciousness had no third-person observable effects, it would be an epiphenomenon. And then there is no way to explain why we're even having this discussion about consciousness.So we all agree on this.?? Why aren't first person observable effects enough to discuss? I guess because if there are no third-person observable effects of consciousness, then I can't detect any other conscious entities to discuss the effects with...The epiphenomenon model says there are third-person observable effects of the phenomenon, which suffice for detecting other entities. Whether the other entities are really conscious or just faking it is a matter of inference. Did you mean to say "The epiphenomenon model says there are *no* third-person observable effects of the phenomenon" ?Of course not. The phenomenon is what is observable, by definition. It's the epiphenomenon which is not third-person observable.But in the epiphenomenon model, consciousness is the epiphenomenon and the phenomenal part of consciousness is its first-person aspect.
The statement was, "there are no third-person observable effects of consciousness". In the epiphenomenal theory of consciousness, I take the phenomenon to be the observable behavior, neuron firings, etc. and consciousness the corresponding epiphenomenon. Those phenomenon do have third person observable effects and in general that's how we infer consciousness in others.
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