On 10 May 2015, at 22:27, meekerdb wrote:
On 5/10/2015 7:53 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 09 May 2015, at 00:24, Russell Standish wrote:
On Fri, May 08, 2015 at 08:47:22AM +0200, Bruno Marchal wrote:
It is only a new recent fashion on this list to take seriously that
a recording can be conscious, because for a logician, that error is
the (common) confusion between the finger and the moon, or between
"2+2=4" and 2+2=4.
It is only recently that we began seriously discussing the MGA at
all
(about the last 3 years).
It seems to recur before, but OK.
Why do you say conscious recording (playbacks) are the same as the
confusion
between "2+2=4" and 2+2=4? I don't even know what you mean by
confusion between the finger and the moon...
It is the confusion between the pointer, and the thing pointed too.
If a recording was conscious, it would transit in the relevant comp
state in virtue of ts relation with a universal machine (a computer
or the sigma_1 number or combinatorial reality), the one processing
the computation. A recording is only a sequence of picture of the
states, in no "causal",
Cause = physical concept.
?
Cause is a more general modal notion, for the philosophers, and the
historians. You can hear historians saying that the cause of the WW II
has been the Versaille treatise, and that is only indirectly related
to the physics which supports the events.
nor logical "relation" with any number at all.
A logical relation is abstract, so why would it depend on how the
sequence was generated?
It does not, but in the case of defining the notion of computation, as
we have fixed the base to be the sigma_1 arithmetic, a computation is
itself defined as a relation.
The MGA uses only the "real time supervenience", to get the
"contradiction modulo magic-of-the-gap-god", and show that
consciousness is related to the semantical relations, even
intensional one, of the computation.
The use of all those scare quotes makes me think the argument is weak.
the first quote is due to the use of "real", which remind that the
materialist is reifying matter, and the second quote is just to remind
that MGA is not a proof on reality, as this does not exist, and so is
only a proof for those who does not reintroduce non Turing emulable
and non FPI recoverable magic to avoid the consequences.
2 + 2 = 4 tels us that it is true that the number 2 and 4 obeys
that relation. "2 + 2 = 4" is only a sequence of symbols which we
have learned to interpret in that way that 2 + 2 = 4.
Similarly, the movie describes token having participated to a
computation (a true relation in arithmetic), but it does not compute.
If you look at the movie and verify that all the steps in the movie
are correct, then *you* do the emulation of the boolean graph, and
consciousness will be there, like in the Chinese room or Einstein's
brain-book, but not in virtue of the movie, but of your
verification of each step described in the movie, with your neuron.
In other words you need to supply the physics that makes it happen
in the "real" world - the world in which consciousness exists.
That does not follow, as it is a theorem in comp that there are an
infinity of "Brent Meeker" in arithmetic quite able to do such
verification. Of course, only those on the normal worlds will have the
stable consciousness, and so, here, physics plays or might play an
important role, but that physics is an emerging pattern from infinity
of computations.
bruno
Brent
That will genuinely emulate the computation, but the movie by
itself does not compute.
Cheers,
Bruno
Cheers
--
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Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)
Principal, High Performance Coders
Visiting Professor of Mathematics [email protected]
University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au
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