On 08 Jun 2015, at 15:58, Terren Suydam wrote:
On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 1:59 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 04 Jun 2015, at 18:01, Terren Suydam wrote:
On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 9:31 AM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 03 Jun 2015, at 14:58, Terren Suydam wrote:
It would be like saying that bats' echolocation is an illusion.
Not a perfect analogy, because a bat's facility for echolocation
is rooted in its physiology, not constructed, but the point is
that with both the ego and echolocation, the experiencer's
consciousness is provided with a particular character it would not
otherwise have been able to experience.
I usually distinguish 8 forms of ego (the eight hypostases). Each
time it is the sigma_1 reality, but viewed from a different angle.
The illusion (with the negative connotations) are more in the
confusion between two hypostases, than each hypostase per se.
I am not sure we disagree, except on some choice of words.
Bruno
I agree that we agree :-)
I agree with this to :)
I know you've posted it in the past but can you point me to a
summary of the original Plotinus model with the 8 hypostases? My
cursory googling reveals only 3 attributed to Plotinus (One,
Intellect, Soul).
That is what Plotinus called the primary hypostases. But there is no
"secondary hypostases", but then some sholars, and myself, agree
that his "two matters" ennead describes actually two (degenerate,
secondary) hypostases. So in the enneads ypu have the three primary
hypostases, which in the "machine theology" is given by truth (One,
p), provable (Intellect, []p) and Soul (that we get with the
theatetus idea on the One and Intellect, []p & p), and the two
matters: intelligible matter ([]p & <>t) and sensible matter ([]p &
<>t & p).
One = p
Intellect = []p (splits in two: G and G*)
Soul = []p & p (does not split: S4Grz)
Intelligible matter = []p & <>t (splits in two Z and Z*)
Sensible matter = []p & <>t & p.(splits in two: X and X*).
To get the propositional physics, you have to restrict the p on the
sigma_1 truth (the computable, the UD-accessible states).
For the neoplatonist; matter is almost where God loses control, and
can't intervene, it is close to the FPI idea, as you know that even
God cannot predict to you, when in Helsinki, where you will feel to
be after the split. For the platonist, matter is really where even
the form can't handle the indetermination. It is of the type ~[]#,
or <>#. It is also the place giving rooms for the contingencies, and
what we can hope and eventually build or recover.
Bruno
OK, so given a certain interpretation, some scholars added two
hypostases to the original three.
It is very natural to do. The ennead VI.1 describes the three "initial
hypostases", and the subject of what is matter, notably the
intelligible matter and the sensible matter, is the subject of the
ennead II.4.
It is a simplification of vocabulary, more than another interpretation.
Then, it appears that you make a third interpretation by splitting
the intellect, and the two matters.
What justifies these splits?
I am not sure I understand? Plotinus splits them too, as they are
different subject matter. The "intellect" is the nous, the worlds of
idea, and here the world of what the machine can prove (seen by her,
and by God: G and G*).
But matter is what you can predict with the FPI, and so it is a
different notion, and likewise, in Plotinus, matter is given by a
platonist rereading of Aristotle theory of indetermination. This is
done in the ennead II-4.
Why should we not split intellect and matter, which in appearance are
very different, and the problem is more in consistently relating them.
If we don't distinguish them, we cannot explain the problem of
relating them.
And can you make this justification in plain language in a way that
doesn't appear to be a "just so" interpretation that makes it easier
for AUDA to go through?
God, or the One, is played by the notion of Arithmetical Truth.
Machines and humans cannot know it, or explore it "mechanically", and
it is the roots of the web of machines dreams, but also of their
semantics, in a large part.
The Nous, is what machine can prove about themselves, and their
remation with God, etc.
The Soul, is where the machine proves true things, but not
accidentally: as it is defined by the conjunction of p and the
provability of p, for any (arithmetical) p. It is the idea of
Theaetetus, that Plotinus might use implicitly (according to Bréhier),
and which just works: it give a logic of an unameable, non-machine,
knower.
For matter; you want that the "measure one" for an event/proposition
is certain, when it is true in all consistent continuation (this asks
for []p, technically), but also, by incompleteness, this asks fro the
diamond <>t (consistency, having a model, having at least one
continuation, not belonging to a cul-de-sac world (all those things
are mathematically equivalent in our setting). So prediction 1 (like
the coffee-cup in the WM-duplication + promise of coffee made at both
reconstitution place) would be []coffee & <>coffee. There is a coffee
in all my extensions, and there is at least one extension (the act of
faith made explicit).
So the logic of physical "yes" is given by []p & <>t, with p sigma_1
(to get the restriction on the universal dovetailing). That
corresponds to Plotinus theory of the intelligible matter, and that
gives a pair of "quantum logic" (by applying a result of Goldblatt).
The same with the sensible matter, where we replay the original idea
of Theatetus, on intelligible matter.
Actually, we get also a quantum logic with the first application of
the Theaetetus, which put some light perhaps why Plotinus ascribe the
roots of matter already to the soul activity. I thought at first that
arithmetic would refute that idea of Plotinus, but the math confirms
this.
I will have to go, and will be slowed down more and more, as I have
the June exams now. Feel free to ask any question though. But you
might need to be patient for the comment/answers.
Bruno
Terren
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