John, You agreed already that a conscious uploaded mind in a process that forks and diverges is from the uploaded mind's point of view, an experience indistinguishable from fundamental randomness.
If it is indistinguishable from randomness, then would you also agree that the experience of going through a process fork, as with an experience involving fundamental randomness, cannot be predicted by any means? If not, pleas explain. Jason On Mon, Jul 27, 2015 at 8:46 PM, chris peck <[email protected]> wrote: > @ Bruno > > >> Not at all. And John Calrk agrees with what I will say here. personal > identity is not a Leibnizian notion. > > You need to focus on what these factors govern: > > 1) international tariffs. > > 2) the state of the chinese economy. > > 3) international demand for tea grown in china. > > > btw. I wasn't talking about Leibnizinan notions of identity. If you were > committed to that you wouldn't be you, let alone H, W or M, one moment to > the next. Even I don't think your metaphysics is that silly. > > I can give you arguments but I can't understand them for you. You have to > do that bit. I don't think you'll ever fix step 3 unless you try a bit > harder. > > ------------------------------ > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: A riddle for John Clark > Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2015 18:45:40 +0200 > > > On 27 Jul 2015, at 05:04, chris peck wrote: > > @ Bruno > > > > > *[John] >> >> Bruno Marchal is correct, that is not ambiguous, that is > a flat out logical contradiction.**[Bruno] >> Where? * > > The problem arises because if "You" = "person who remembers Helsinki" then > you ought to be able replace one for the other without truth values > altering. Thats just logic 101. > > > Not at all. And John Calrk agrees with what I will say here. personal > identity is not a Leibnizian notion. > That is why in the math we wuse modal logic, which is not Leibnizian. Let > "Arthur believe p" be []p > > zeta(2) = pi^2 / 6 entails zeta(2) is irrationaL IFF pi^2 / 6 is > irrational, > but [](zetat(2) is irrational) is not entailed by [](pi^2 / 6 is > irrational. > > In intensional context, the Leibniz identity rule (two quantities equal to > a same third one are equal) is no more true. > > John agrees with this, and he agrees explicitly on the fact that the M guy > and the H guy are the H guy, despite the M guy and the W guy are different > guy. Nothing weird here: personal identity is a modal or intensional > notion. The math exemplifies this in all details, and all this ultimately > related to pure simple extensional relation between numbers. > > > > > > > But, according to you one of these two phrases is false: > > "{You} will see only one city" <--- true according to Bruno. > > "{person who remembers Helsinki} will see only one city". <--- false > according to Bruno. > > > No. I have never said that. All I say is that in Helsinki, i expect myself > to have the unique experience of being in a unique city. The problem is not > in the pronom, but in the undersanding that the question bears on first > person experiences, and not on third person localization of the experience. > > > > > > > Since all you have done is replace one phrase for another you have to > accept that those phrases mean something different, otherwise where does > the difference in truth value come from? > > > Well, in modal context, it is doubly grave to not quote the chole context. > I never say what you, perhaps John, attriubute to me here, but even if I > said, it we are in a modal, intensional context, where John and me agree > that we cannot use the Leibniz identity rule. > > > > > "you" can not equal "person who remembers Helsinki", otherwise you are > contradicting yourself. You are saying it is true and false that "you will > see only one city". > > > You will see two cities. That is true for the third person points of view. > > You will see only one city. That is true as a prediction of the > subjective, first person, experience. > > > > > > This has nothing to do with 1-p, 3-p, p-p confusions > > > > It has everything to do with 1p and 3p pov, as I just illustrated above. > That's obvious as the question is about what you expect to live from the > first person point of view, and you don't expect to have the experience of > being in W and in M, but, as we assume comp, you expect to live with > certainty in either W or in M (as both copies confirms after). > > > > > but is a direct consequence of how you define your terms, Bruno. > > > Sorry, but you just illustrate well that your and Clark's misunderstanding > comes from the 1p and 3p confusion. > > The John Clark in Washington cannot deny he is the one having the > experience to live Washington and not in Moscow. > The John Clark in Moscow cannot deny he is the one having the experience > to live Moscow and not in Washington. > > Both admits that the duplication has introduced an asymmetry, and that > they each got one bit of information. > > Bruno > > > > > > ------------------------------ > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: A riddle for John Clark > Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2015 19:52:22 +0200 > > > On 24 Jul 2015, at 19:03, John Clark wrote: > > On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 1:11 AM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> > Yes, after the duplication but before the door of the duplicating chamber > is opened John Clark may have a hunch that he (at this point the personal > pronoun is not ambiguous because although there are 2 bodies they are > identical so there is still just one John Clark) will see Moscow when the > door is opened and make a bet. One of the John Clarks will win the bet and > one will not; it can never be determined if "he" won the bet because as > soon as the door was opened the 2 bodies were no longer identical, they had > different memories, so that personal pronoun becomes ambiguous. > > > > > That contradict the fact that you have agreed that both copies are the > Helsinki guy. > > > After the bodies are duplicated but before the door is opened there are > 2 bodies but still only one > Helsinki guy > > because they are identical, when the door is opened they see different > things and thus diverge. They both remain > the Helsinki guy > because they have equally vivid memories of being a guy in Helsinki, but > they are no longer each other because they diverged as soon as the door > was opened. I understand how that state of affairs would be strange, but > please explain how it is contradictory. > > > > There is nothing contradictory. > > On the contrary, that is a good explanation why P(W v M) = 1, when W and M > refer to the self-localization experience. As you said, the experience > diverge. For one Helsinki guy the measurement is W, and so write W in the > diary, and for the other the measurement gives M, and he write M in his > diary. Both agree that they could not have predicted that result, except by > betting "W v M", which is undermined but true at both place, and obviously > the experience "W and M" is, well, not even an experience at all. It is > half an experience, and half an intellectual belief. > > > > > > > > > There is no ambiguity, you are both guys. > > > "You" is both guys. > > > Intellectually. The experience have diverged, The outcome of the > self-localization are different. From now on, you are either a guy living > in Moscow having a doppelganger in Washington, OR a guy living > in Washington having a doppelganger in Moscow. You don't become a > mysterious entity experiencing both place simultaneously. Both got one bit > of information from the push+self-localization measurement. > > > > > > One guy will be in Moscow. One guy will be in Washington. But "you" will > see only one city. > > > yes, in Helsinki, you can be sure of that/ You push on a button, open a > door, and see only one city, and get a cup of coffee. > > You have guessed right the other day. P(coffee) = 1 because "coffee" is > satisfied in both place. But "W or M" is also satisfied in both place, and > "W and M" is false in both place, as W and M refers to the incompatible > experience of seeing Moscow and seeing Washington from the direct first > person experience. Indeed, only the mysterious entity experiencing both > places could wriite W and M, by the definition of the FIRST person > experience denoted by W and M. > > > > > > Bruno Marchal > is correct, that is not ambiguous, that is a flat out logical > contradiction. > > > > Where? it is W & M which is a flat out contradiction, when W and M refers > to the first person experience. One diary contains M, the other contain W. > None contain W and M. I hope you are OK with this. > > > > > I said it before I'll say it again, if > Bruno Marchal > wants the words "you will only see one city" to be true > Bruno Marchal > is going to have to change the meaning of the personal pronoun "you" ; > > > I don't have to change the meaning. Right at the start, the question is > about the expected outcome of a first person experience. You agree that > there is a divergence, so I guess you understood that one write in the > diary W, and the other write M. Those are what makes the divergence to > exist. I keep the meaning of "you", and you are in both city, but the point > is that in both city you see only once city, so the bet P(one city) = 1 was > correct, and P(I see two cities at once when opening the box) = 0. The > prediction is on the personal experience of what is seen when opening the > door. It is NOT on the third person localization of those experiences. > > > > somebody who remembers being a man in Helsinki just won't work. > > > It works perfectly well. After the duplication, I interviewed all the guys > who remember having been the guy pushing on the button in Helsinki, and > they all told me that indeed, as predicted, the self-localizaton > measurement gave as a result only once city. P(one city) was equal as > P(coffe), for the exact same reason: that is what is lived by all the > continuations. > > Bruno > > > > > > > > > John K Clark > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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