On 30 Jul 2015, at 22:09, John Clark wrote:
On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 12:11 PM, Bruno Marchal
<[email protected]> wrote:
>> To hell with this 3p crap! We agreed that "you" meant
remembering being a man in Helsinki
> Yes.
Good.
PERIOD.
> No
Not good.
To say that "you" "meant remembering being a man in Helsinki" does
not determined the 1p,
If "you" doesn't mean remembering being a man in Helsinki then I
ask for the 9999 time, what the hell does the personal pronoun "you"
mean? If Bruno is unable to give a coherent answer to that question,
and by now it's pretty clear that Bruno can not, then please stop
using that word when trying to tackle issues like personal identity
or the unique feeling of self.
You makes me say what I did not say.
I repeat: "you" meant, since always, "remembering being the man in
Helsinki".
What I said, is that the definition, which I use, does not determine
the 1p. Indeed that is the (interesting) problem of relating the 1p to
3p description. You can be in both city, but you will feel in once
city. The solution is simple: your 1p experience is undetermined, like
in the self-superposition in the MWI.
> you cannot live both experience at once
Who cannot live both experiences at once?
Anyone, when the experience are logically exclusive, like you have
admitted the W and M experiences are.
> The guy has been duplicated, there is no such thing as " the 1p".
> It is, obviously, the 1p that you will live in
The 1p that who will live in?
You, the two guys who remembers having seen Helsinki, and have
differentiated in exclusive first person after pushing the button.
> You have agreed yourself that as long as the reconstitution
boxes have not been open, the same consciousness is attached to the
copies
Yes.
>and you have agreed that they differentiate after
opening the door.
Yes.
>both individual are the H-man
Yes.
both have differentiate into person seeing one city
Yes.
> both will admit they got one bit of information.
That is not new information. Even before the reconstitution
boxes have been opened I (there was still only one John Clark then,
so "I" is not ambiguous) knew that when those doors were opened one
John Clark would receive photons from Moscow and one John Clark
would receive photons from Washington. And I also knew which one
would be which, I knew the Moscow Man would get his photons from
Moscow and the Washington Man would get his photons from Washington.
Nothing new has been learned.
This confirms that you don't listen to what they say. because this, if
correct would make the prediction "W & M", and both copies refute it.
You just ignore what the copies testify.
>>And how many cities will those two yous observe from the
first person? John Clark believes the answer is 2.
Again you say a triviality in the 3p description, and a
contradiction *for* the 1p perspective, when seen *from* the 1p-
perspective, which was the point of the question.
If duplicating chambers are involved there is no such thing as
the 1p perspective when seen from the 1p-perspective. One
perspective has just as much a right to be called "first" as
another.
The point is that for both copies, each experience is exclusive of the
other, and so from both their 1p views, the "the" made in Helsinki if
sensical. Again, that is pretty obvious if you iterate the duplication.
> You try hard to blur the 1p/3p distinction
Don't be an ass. The trouble isn't the distinction between 1p and
3p, the trouble is the distinction between the 1p and a 1p.
Then use "a 1p", as it works as well to get the indeterminacy of the
subjective experiences---*all* the subjectives experienceS, which all
get one bit of information at each duplication, as they will all
confirm.
You might be inspired to try to find a mistake in step 4-8, as you
fail on step 3. On step 3 you are just successfully proving the
vastness of your bad faith, and your diminishing ability to renew your
handwaving technic and rhetorical means.
Bruno
John K Clark
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to [email protected].
To post to this group, send email to [email protected].
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email
to [email protected].
To post to this group, send email to [email protected].
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
