I asked you what you meant by the term supernatural because you present conflicting views, or so they appear to me. I don't see how that becomes playing straw man. However, I understand if you feel we've exhausted the discussion. Regards, Samiya
> On 18-Aug-2015, at 1:54 am, John Mikes <[email protected]> wrote: > > Samiya: thanks for your detailed reply. I do not play straw-man so I let it > go. > JM > >> On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 1:27 AM, Samiya Illias <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> John M, >> I'm not sure exactly what you had earlier asked about Satan and how I had >> attempted to answer it.I will try to answer 'where does 'Satan' come into >> the picture?' here. However, my scripture informs me that we can only warn >> with this Quran those who believe in the unseen, hence perhaps that is the >> reason why our discussions have been in vain. >> >> May I ask why you refuse to admit the existence of a supernatural when you >> yourself admit that we know only a small fraction of the infinite >> complexity? And what do you mean by 'supernatural'? Do you use this term to >> refer to 'The Creator of Nature'? >> >> So, coming back to your question: 'where does 'Satan' come into the >> picture?' The following is as I understand it from the Quran. However, due >> to gaps in my understanding, the sequence of the events may be different, as >> I attempt to collect my thoughts: >> >> God, Allah: The Creator, The Sustainer, The King and The Deity, created >> everything for some purpose. >> He created dJinns and Humans to serve Him. He created dJinns from Fire and >> Humans from Clay. The dJinns were created earlier, the humans later. >> However, there was a period of time when humans were nothing worth >> mentioning. Excerpts from my blogpost Human Evolution >> [http://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2015/01/human-evolution.html]: >> Earthly Origins >> [Al-Qur’an 71:17, Translator: Sahih International] And Allah has caused you >> to grow from the earth a [progressive] growth. >> Pre-historic Humans >> [Al-Qur’an 76:1, Translator: Sahih International] Has there [not] come upon >> man a period of time when he was not a thing [even] mentioned? >> Perfection through Evolution >> [Al-Qur’an 32:7-9, Translator: Sahih International] Who perfected everything >> which He created and began the creation of man from clay. Then He made his >> posterity out of the extract of a liquid disdained. Then He proportioned him >> and breathed into him from His [created] soul and made for you hearing and >> vision and hearts; little are you grateful. >> [unquote] >> >> The Trust was offered to the Heavens, Earth and Mountains, all refused, >> scared to undertake the responsibility. Human undertook it. >> This act of being a Trustee necessitates that God judges humans, punishing >> the idolaters and the hypocrites, while rewarding the believers. >> Quran 33:72-73 Lo! We offered the trust unto the heavens and the earth and >> the hills, but they shrank from bearing it and were afraid of it. And man >> assumed it. Lo! he hath proved a tyrant and a fool. So Allah punisheth >> hypocritical men and hypocritical women, and idolatrous men and idolatrous >> women. But Allah pardoneth believing men and believing women, and Allah is >> ever Forgiving, Merciful. >> However, the Compassionate and Just God is not going to punish anyone for no >> fault of theirs. Hence, after creating Adam, God took out Adam's progeny >> (all potential consciousnesses) and asked us all if He[God] is their god. We >> all testified to it, and hence each one of us is a witness to our own >> covenant with God. >> Quran 7:172-174 And [mention] when your Lord took from the children of Adam >> - from their loins - their descendants and made them testify of themselves, >> [saying to them],"Am I not your Lord?" They said, "Yes, we have testified." >> [This] - lest you should say on the day of Resurrection, "Indeed, we were of >> this unaware." Or [lest] you say, "It was only that our fathers associated >> [others in worship] with Allah before, and we were but descendants after >> them. Then would You destroy us for what the falsifiers have done?" And thus >> do We [explain in] detail the verses, and perhaps they will return. >> >> To establish its eligibility to inherit the eternal Garden(s), each >> consciousness also receives its own temporal life on Earth to prove its >> worth as a Trustee, and each will be judged individually. >> >> After God blew His Spirit in Adam, He asked all angels to prostrate/submit >> to Adam. However, Iblis (Satan / The Chief Deceiver) refused. His refusal to >> submit to Adam was based upon arrogance. He believes that his being created >> from Fire makes him superior to Adam who is created from Clay. Not all >> dJinns are evil, but Satan and his progeny are the sworn enemies of mankind. >> They watch us from where we cannot see them (another dimension / shadow >> biosphere / ??) and they are able to whisper suggestions to our minds >> (desires / temptations / expectations / fears / doubts / ?? ). Whether to >> act upon the suggestions or to resist them is in our control. Satan and his >> progeny do not have any real power upon us. Our intellect and our conscience >> are great blessings, and we must use them together to overcome the >> challenges. >> >> We are clearly and repeatedly warned that Satan is a determined, relentless >> enemy and that humans should not worship him. The only being worthy of >> worship is the One, True, Ever-Living God, and all other worship are >> actually forms of Satan-worship, who deceives us in multiple ways. >> >> Excerpts from my blogpost: Mission of the Messengers >> [http://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2015/06/mission-of-messengers.html] >> Adam’s Covenant and Fall >> Quran 20:115 informs us that a covenant was already taken from Adam, but he >> forgot and there was no firm resolve on his part. The subsequent verses go >> on to relate the event of all angels prostrating to Adam while Iblees >> (Satan) refused. Adam is forewarned that Satan is an enemy to Adam and his >> wife; hence to be careful lest Satan causes their expulsion from the Garden >> where all their needs (food, clothing, comfort) were taken care of. However, >> they were seduced by Satan and ate the forbidden fruit. Quran 20:123 informs >> us that, at the time of their expulsion from the Garden to the earth, Adam >> and Eve are yet again warned of the enmity between humans and Satan, but >> that whoever follows God’s guidance will not lose his way or fall into >> misery. The subsequent verses of Chapter 20 expand upon the result of not >> heeding to God’s message. >> >> Satan’s Plan to Destroy Humans >> Modern scientific research points to the origin of RNA in clay. Advances in >> Genetic Engineering are opening new avenues for alterations in and >> modification of the ‘code of life’. >> Experiments in cloning and cross-breeding on cattle have been going on since >> the past many years. Though samples for cloning can be taken from anywhere, >> the most convenient and popular method is to take sample from the ear. >> The following verses help us understand the relationship between keeping our >> covenant and duty to God and the womb, and how Satan plans to corrupt >> creation by means of cloning and cross-breeding: >> >> Quran 4:117-121 informs us that the rebellious Satan is cursed because he >> has sworn to take a portion of humans and that: >> ‘… And I will mislead them, and I will arouse in them [sinful] desires, and >> I will command them so they will slit the ears of cattle, and I will command >> them so they will change the creation of Allah ." And whoever takes Satan as >> an ally instead of Allah has certainly sustained a clear loss. …’ >> >> Quran 17:61-66 relating the story when the angels were ordered to prostrate >> to Adam, quotes Iblees' (Satan) objection to prostrate to one made of clay, >> vowing that ‘I will surely destroy his descendants, except for a few’. >> Granting Iblees respite till the Day of Resurrection, he is given permission >> to: ‘Go, for whoever of them follows you, indeed Hell will be the recompense >> of you - an ample recompense. And incite [to senselessness] whoever you can >> among them with your voice and assault them with your horses and foot >> soldiers and become a partner in their wealth and their children and promise >> them.’ >> [unquote] >> >> Leviticus 18-20 also forbids cross-breeding and related harmful practices. >> >> It is important to note that Iblis [Satan] is not unaware of God. He >> acknowledges God, yet refuses to obey Him. He arrogantly considers himself >> superior to another creation, and yet prays, to the same God he is daring to >> disobey, to grant him respite to the Day of Judgement. In the narrative in >> the Quran, Adam and his wife also err, tempted by Satan: 'Then Satan >> whispered to him; he said, "O Adam, shall I direct you to the tree of >> eternity and possession that will not deteriorate?" ' >> [http://quran.com/20/120]. Yet they humbly admit their error and turn to God >> in repentance. Hence, the importance of humility, submission and piety, the >> will to keep our duty to God. That, in my understanding, is what Faith is >> all about: willful submission to the Will of God! >> >> Regards, >> Samiya >> >>> On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 12:52 AM, John Mikes <[email protected]> wrote: >>> Brent: >>> did it slip your mind that your friend, the prez started the Arab Awakening >>> by stabbing Mubarak in the back by his letter and supporting the US-enemy >>> Morsi ("The first DEMOCRATICALLY(?) elected Egyptian prez and his >>> Brotherhood!!!) together with his then Foreign Sec'y Hillary, giving >>> billions in weapons etc. >>> - then again he stuffed the investors' etc. pockets with our health-care >>> billion dollars and >>> sent further hundredthousand Americans to their demise in the Middle East >>> (very few come home sane and safe) >>> and so on and on. But he is a religious(?) chap. >>> >>> Atheism is more than just absence of belief IMO: it requires a supernatural >>> to disbelief in it. I look at a 'religiously motivated violence' with >>> suspicion since I still look for a fitting definition for 'religious'. I >>> asked Samiya where does 'Satan' come into the picture in vain. IMO every >>> thinking person starts out with SOME belief (e.g. the existence (reality?) >>> of an infinite complexity we like to call 'WORLD'' of which we only know a >>> small fraction.) >>> >>> Telmo's 'douchebag' is a criminal: he lured character-weak persons into his >>> casinos to take their money (legitimately!) and added it to his billions. >>> Every gambling Bigboss is a criminal. I saw too much in my 93 years so far. >>> >>> I am not an ''A"- THEIST, I am an ágnostic. >>> >>> JM >>> >>> >>>> On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 4:32 PM, meekerdb <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> On 8/9/2015 6:33 AM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote: >>>>> Brent, false! They killed to suppress religious belief, and exterminate >>>>> believers, >>>> >>>> Nonsense. You've swallowed the religious propaganda. The killings were >>>> purely punishment for opposing the regime or not working hard enough for >>>> it. >>>> >>>>> and yes they were totalitarian and many atheists claim not to be. They >>>>> killed to support atheism, which is indisputable, >>>> >>>> It's not only disputable, it's unevidenced. They didn't care what people >>>> believed about the supernatural, just so they didn't oppose the regime. >>>> >>>>> and out of loyalty to Mao, Stalin, and your pal Bamers, Oops! Did I say >>>>> that? >>>> >>>> You mean President Obama, the guy passed universal health insurance and >>>> ended U.S. occupation of Iraq and has avoided getting us into a war in >>>> Egypt, Yemen, Libya, Syria, Ukraine and all those other places you'd like >>>> send your fellow citizens to attack? >>>> >>>>> The bigger question is why doesn't religious belief or atheism reduce >>>>> violence? >>>> >>>> Atheism is just and absence of belief, so it's not surprising that it >>>> has little bearing on violence. It's only effect would be to reduce >>>> religiously motivated violence, e.g. ISIS or the IRA. Religious beliefs >>>> are all over the place, from,"Love everyone as your brother." to "If they >>>> don't want to worship God kill them." >>>> >>>> Brent >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>> email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
