On 21 Apr 2016, at 00:15, Samiya Illias wrote:
On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 12:21 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
wrote:
Hi Samya,
I already told you that Soufism is, in Islam, and from the
theological point of view, the closer to the machine's theology,
which is not astonishing given that they are closer to Neoplatonism
too (and I have explained that the mathematical theology of the
universal machine is close to Neoplatonism, and also to the
Neopythagoreanism of the earlier centuries).
I have discovered the Alevi Bektashi sects since, and they confirmed
my feeling, not only with respect to the theological science, but
also with respect to practice and their openness to other religion
(which *is* a sign of genuine faith in the machine's faith).
Do you know them?
I didn't know about this sect, but just read it up on Wikipedia.
There are several sects in Islam, as in all other religions. Though
I disagree with their beliefs, I will not comment upon it or
criticise it, as I am held back by these verses of the Quran:
Indeed, those who divide their religion and become sects, you are
not with them in anything. Only their affair (is) with Allah, then
He will inform them of what they used to do.
http://islamawakened.com/quran/6/159/
And hold firmly to (the) rope (of) Allah all together and (do) not
be divided. And remember (the) Favor (of) Allah on you when you were
enemies then He made friendship between your hearts then you became
by His Favor brothers. And you were on (the) brink (of) pit of the
Fire then He saved you from it. Thus Allah makes clear for you His
Verses so that you may (be) guided.
http://islamawakened.com/quran/3/103/
I realise also that Ataturk made a big mistake. Wanting to eliminate
the weight of religion in Turkey, he persecuted them and installed
the Sunni instead, which are rarely open to other religion and can
often use the "argument" of force (as we can see today in some
countries, alas).
http://www.islamicpluralism.org/2340/the-bektashi-alevi-continuum-from-the-balkans-to
On the french wikipedia, they assert also that the veil is not
obligatory,
I agree that the veil is not obligatory. It is not even ordained to
ordinary Muslims in the Quran. The veil or partition was ordained
upon the believers as regards to the Prophet's wives in Chapter 33:
O you who believe! (Do) not enter (the) houses (of) the Prophet
except when permission is given to you for a meal, without awaiting
its preparation. But when you are invited, then enter; and when you
have eaten, then disperse and not seeking to remain for a
conversation. Indeed, that was troubling the Prophet, and he is shy
of (dismissing) you. But Allah is not shy of the truth. And when you
ask them (for) anything then ask them from behind a screen. That
(is) purer for your hearts and their hearts. And not is for you that
you trouble (the) Messenger (of) Allah and not that you should marry
his wives after him, ever. Indeed, that is near Allah an enormity.
http://islamawakened.com/quran/33/53/
Consider the above in the light of these verses which precede verse
53 in the same chapter:
The Prophet (is) closer to the believers than their own selves, and
his wives (are) their mothers. And possessors (of) relationships,
some of them (are) closer to another in (the) Decree (of) Allah than
the believers and the emigrants, except that you do to your friends
a kindness. That is in the Book written.
http://islamawakened.com/quran/33/6/
O wives (of) the Prophet! You are not like anyone among the women.
If you fear (Allah), then (do) not be soft in speech, lest should be
moved with he who, in his heart (is) a disease, but say a word
appropriate. And stay in your houses and (do) not display yourselves
(as was the) display (of the times of) ignorance the former. And
establish the prayer and give zakah and obey Allah and His
Messenger. Only Allah wishes to remove from you the impurity, (O)
People (of) the House! And to purify you (with thorough)
purification. And remember what is recited in your houses of (the)
Verses (of) Allah and the wisdom. Indeed, Allah is All-Subtle, All-
Aware. Indeed, the Muslim men and the Muslimen, and the believing
men and the believing women, and the obedient men and the obedient
women, and the truthful men and the truthful women, and the patient
men and the patient women, and the humble men and the humble women,
and the men who give charity and the women who give charity and the
men who fast and the women who fast, and the men who guard their
chastity and the women who guard (it), and the men who remember
Allah much and the women who remember Allah has prepared for them
forgiveness and a reward great.
http://islamawakened.com/quran/33/32/ ; http://islamawakened.com/quran/33/33/
; http://islamawakened.com/quran/33/34/ ; http://islamawakened.com/quran/33/35/
Relevant to the veil is also the issue of Head Cover. Someone on
another list raised a question about head cover a while back. This
is how I understand it: http://islam-qna.blogspot.com/2016/01/head-cover.html
and that the bektashi woman can marry without any problem a man with
another religion. The woman bektashi prays together with the man,
which is nice, but also religiously serious if I can say. Woman are
treated like man. They are egalitarian, and have often fight against
the use of authority in religion and politics. Nor do they pray in
the direction of the Mecca.
Regarding prayer and direction, we can sometimes pray together or
segregated at the Grand Mosque at Mecca, as the situation may be. In
many other mosques, separate arrangements are made for men and
women, while in some local/small mosques, there is only prayer area
for men, while women pray at home.
Quran, Chapter 2, verses 142 onwards mention the Qibla, and the
following verse orders and explains it thus:
And from wherever you start forth [so] turn your face (in the)
direction (of) Al-Masjid Al-Haraam. And wherever that you (all) are
[so] turn your faces (in) its direction, so that not will be for the
people against you any argument except those who wronged among them;
so (do) not fear them, but fear Me. And that I complete My favor
upon you [and] so that you may (be) guided. As We sent among you a
Messenger from you (who) recites to you Our verses and purifies you
and teaches you the Book and the wisdom and teaches you what not you
were knowing. So remember Me, I will remember you and be grateful to
Me and (do) not (be) ungrateful to Me. O you who believe[d]! Seek
help through patience and the prayer. Indeed, Allah (is) with the
patient ones.
http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/150/ ; http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/151/
; http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/152/ ; http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/153/
The turning towards Qibla in Mecca is simply following the order
for unity, and not an act of piety, as clarified by the following
verse:
It is not [the] righteousness that you turn your faces towards the
east and the west, [and] but the righteous[ness] (is he) who
believes in Allah and the Day [the] Last, and the Angels, and the
Book, and the Prophets, and gives the wealth in spite of his love
(for it) (to) the near relatives, and the orphans, and the needy,
and (of) the wayfarer, and those who ask, and in freeing the necks
(slaves) and (who) establish the prayer, and give the zakah, and
those who fulfill their covenant when they make it; and those who
are in [the] suffering and [the] hardship, and (the) time (of) [the]
stress. Those (are) the ones who are true and those, [they] (are)
the righteous.
http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/177/
The Alevi (alone) people have originally claim that their religion
is anterior to Islam, despite close to Shi'ism after the influence
of Muhammad and Ali (Muhammad's nephew and sun in law). There are
obvious link with Zoroastrism (the "mother" of the abrahamic
religion).
I find them very interesting. The main point closer to machine's
theology, is that they have a non literal, mystic interpretation of
the Quran,
Suppose
(i) someone receives a legal notice, and does not read it literally:
would that be an intelligent or sensible thing to do?
(ii) someone is entering into a contract with someone, and does not
read the agreement literally: will this ignorance of the contract
hold as an excuse if things do not go well and they eventually have
to go to court?
(iii) you write a paper or an email, and the recipients do not read
it literally, even though they have a high regard for you and your
knowledge, but choose to instead only keep it? suppose you wrote
important information and vital instructions in it, not following
which would cause the reader terrible loss, then would the
recipients not be terribly unjust to themselves by not attempting to
study, understand and follow it?
What proof is there that the mystic non-literal interpretations are
correct, and which one?
Why would God send a non-literal text when God created all languages
and can clearly express and instruct in any language? I believe that
the Quran is a guidance for all believers*, so that they have the
opportunity in this life to do good deeds accordingly and prove
themselves worthy of God's forgiveness, and thus be purified** and
granted inheritance of the Gardens of Eden.
As the Quran itself states:
Only you (can) warn (him) who follows the Reminder and fears the
Most Gracious in the unseen. So give him glad tidings of forgiveness
and a reward noble.
http://islamawakened.com/quran/36/11/
And not We taught him [the] poetry, and not it is befitting for him.
Not it (is) except a Reminder and a Quran clear, To warn (him) who
is alive and may be proved true the Word against the disbelievers.
http://islamawakened.com/quran/36/69/ ; http://islamawakened.com/quran/36/70/
Say, "What thing (is) greatest (as) a testimony?" Say, "Allah (is)
Witness between me and between you, and has been revealed to me this
[the] Quran that I may warn you with it and whoever it reaches. Do
you truly testify that with Allah (there are) gods other?" Say, "I
(do) not testify." Say, "Only He (is) One God, and indeed, I am free
of what you associate (with Him)
http://islamawakened.com/quran/6/19/
The Quran claims repeatedly that it is explained in detail:
http://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2015/03/explained-in-detail.html
*believers: God knows who is a believer in the only true God, and
who is a hypocrite, and who is a polytheist, and who is a
disbeliever. I think these terminologies used in the Quran are
independent of the religious titles we are born with or profess.
Thus, the Quran exhorts:
And remind, for indeed, the reminder benefits the believers.
http://islamawakened.com/quran/51/55/
**purified: I understand the purification to be that our software is
restored to its pristine original perfect condition, as I've
discussed in my Mission of the Messengers blogposts, about how the
Adam's genome got corrupted, and we have inherited it: http://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2015/11/mission-of-messengers-iii.html
I will take a look at some of those links, but the reason why I think
we should not interpret literally the sacred text is that the "divine
experience" is not communicable as such. It can inspire legal texts,
but I take democracy as a human progress, and I prefer people voting
the laws, than making them relying on the divine, because too many
people could abuse them. In invoking the divine in the terrestrial
affair, we automatically make an argument from authority, which cannot
be valid.
An official religion is sometimes a sect which has succeeded. The
Quran says that we should not divide islam or religion, but that is
exactly the spirit of the backteshi people: they manage to see what is
common in all religion and build from that. officials and sectarian
people points on the difference, which most of the time are details,
which can be useful in some context, but should not be taken as
literal truth. Today many muslims fight against each other: it is
because of details, which strictly speaking have nothing to do with
the divine message, and all to do with terrestrial power. It the
literalism which prevents to see the truth behind the means of its
expression, and that truth is available to any creature which looks
inward. It is a personal undertaking, where it is better to not let
anyone standing between you and the "glass of Milk" (to not given It a
name).
There is no intermediate between a person and the ultimate truth. I
have the feeling that literalism makes the prophet(s) into a sort of
intermediate, but this might already be a blasphem, at least in the
"correct religion" of the honest introspectibe being (machine or more
general).
We have already discussed this. I gave only the Bektashi Alevi Muslim
branch as a nice example of people calling themselves Muslim and which
are very close to the mathematical theology of the ideally correct
machines. For the Sufi, that point was not so clear (especially
concerning some modern sects).
To expand ourself in the galaxy, we need the mechanist machine
theology (many machine will be non mechanist too, as the machine soul
cannot believe she is a machine). We must be open that God's creatures
can be very different on different planets and galaxies. Again a case
where literalism can divide instead of uniting. I think.
Bruno
Samiya
which is directly reflected in their spiritual flexibility and
openness to *apparently different* faith. They understand that
sacred texts are parabola to help the attempt to the personal
experience of the divine, which is very often discouraged if not
forbidden once a religion is institutionalized.
Best,
Bruno
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
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