Samiya: thanks for your detailed reply. I do not play straw-man so I let it go. JM
On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 1:27 AM, Samiya Illias <[email protected]> wrote: > John M, > I'm not sure exactly what you had earlier asked about Satan and how I had > attempted to answer it.I will try to answer 'where does 'Satan' come into > the picture?' here. However, my scripture informs me that we can only > warn with this Quran those who believe in the unseen, hence perhaps that is > the reason why our discussions have been in vain. > > May I ask why you refuse to admit the existence of a supernatural when you > yourself admit that we know only a small fraction of the infinite > complexity? And what do you mean by 'supernatural'? Do you use this term to > refer to 'The Creator of Nature'? > > So, coming back to your question: 'where does 'Satan' come into the > picture?' The following is as I understand it from the Quran. > However, due to gaps in my understanding, the sequence of the events may be > different, as I attempt to collect my thoughts: > > God, Allah: The Creator, The Sustainer, The King and The Deity, created > everything for some purpose. > He created dJinns and Humans to serve Him. He created dJinns from Fire and > Humans from Clay. The dJinns were created earlier, the humans later. > However, there was a period of time when humans were nothing worth > mentioning. Excerpts from my blogpost Human Evolution [ > http://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2015/01/human-evolution.html]: > *Earthly Origins* > [Al-Qur’an 71:17, Translator: Sahih International] And Allah has *caused > you to grow from the earth* a [progressive] growth. > *Pre-historic Humans * > [Al-Qur’an 76:1, Translator: Sahih International] Has there [not] come > upon man *a period of time* *when he was not a thing [even] mentioned*? > *Perfection through Evolution * > [Al-Qur’an 32:7-9, Translator: Sahih International] *Who perfected > everything which He created* and *began* the creation of man from clay. *Then > He made his posterity* out of the extract of a liquid disdained. *Then He > proportioned him and breathed into him *from His [created] soul and made > for you hearing and vision and hearts; little are you grateful. > [unquote] > > The Trust was offered to the Heavens, Earth and Mountains, all refused, > scared to undertake the responsibility. Human undertook it. > This act of being a Trustee necessitates that God judges humans, punishing > the idolaters and the hypocrites, while rewarding the believers. > Quran 33:72-73 <http://quran.com/33/72-73> Lo! *We offered the trust* unto > the heavens and the earth and the hills, but they shrank from bearing it > and were afraid of it. *And man assumed it. *Lo! he hath proved a tyrant > and a fool. *So Allah punisheth hypocritical men and hypocritical women, > and idolatrous men and idolatrous women. But Allah pardoneth believing men > and believing women, and Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful*. > However, the Compassionate and Just God is not going to punish anyone for > no fault of theirs. Hence, after creating Adam, God took out Adam's progeny > (all potential consciousnesses) and asked us all if He[God] is their god. > We all testified to it, and hence each one of us is a witness to our own > covenant with God. > Quran 7:172-174 <http://quran.com/7/172-174> And [mention] *when your > Lord took from the children of Adam* - from their loins - *their > descendants and made them testify of themselves,* [saying to them],*"Am I > not your Lord?" They said, "Yes, we have testified."* [This] - lest you > should say on the day of Resurrection, "Indeed, we were of this > unaware." Or [lest] you say, "It was only that our fathers associated > [others in worship] with Allah before, and we were but descendants after > them. Then would You destroy us for what the falsifiers have done?" And > thus do We [explain in] detail the verses, and perhaps they will return. > > To establish its eligibility to inherit the eternal Garden(s), each > consciousness also receives its own temporal life on Earth to prove its > worth as a Trustee, and each will be judged individually. > > After God blew His Spirit in Adam, He asked all angels to prostrate/submit > to Adam. However, Iblis (Satan / The Chief Deceiver) refused. His refusal > to submit to Adam was based upon arrogance. He believes that his being > created from Fire makes him superior to Adam who is created from Clay. Not > all dJinns are evil, but Satan and his progeny are the sworn enemies of > mankind. They watch us from where we cannot see them (another dimension / > shadow biosphere / ??) and they are able to whisper suggestions to our > minds (desires / temptations / expectations / fears / doubts / ?? ). > Whether to act upon the suggestions or to resist them is in our control. > Satan and his progeny do not have any real power upon us. Our intellect and > our conscience are great blessings, and we must use them together to > overcome the challenges. > > We are clearly and repeatedly warned that Satan is a determined, > relentless enemy and that humans should not worship him. The only being > worthy of worship is the One, True, Ever-Living God, and all other worship > are actually forms of Satan-worship, who deceives us in multiple ways. > > Excerpts from my blogpost: Mission of the Messengers [ > http://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2015/06/mission-of-messengers.html] > *Adam’s Covenant and Fall* > Quran 20:115 <http://quran.com/20/115> informs us that a covenant was > already taken from Adam, but he forgot and there was no firm resolve on his > part. The subsequent verses <http://quran.com/20/116-122> go on to relate > the event of all angels prostrating to Adam while Iblees (Satan) refused. > Adam is forewarned that Satan is an enemy to Adam and his wife; hence to be > careful lest Satan causes their expulsion from the Garden where all their > needs (food, clothing, comfort) were taken care of. However, they were > seduced by Satan and ate the forbidden fruit. Quran 20:123 > <http://quran.com/20/123> informs us that, at the time of their expulsion > from the Garden to the earth, Adam and Eve are yet again warned of the > enmity between humans and Satan, but that whoever follows God’s guidance > will not lose his way or fall into misery. The subsequent verses of Chapter > 20 <http://quran.com/20> expand upon the result of not heeding to God’s > message. > > *Satan’s Plan to Destroy Humans* > Modern scientific research points to the origin of RNA in clay. Advances > in Genetic Engineering are opening new avenues for alterations in and > modification of the ‘code of life’. > Experiments in cloning and cross-breeding on cattle have been going on > since the past many years. Though samples for cloning can be taken from > anywhere, the most convenient and popular method is to take sample from the > ear. > The following verses help us understand the relationship between keeping > our covenant and duty to God and the womb, and how Satan plans to corrupt > creation by means of cloning and cross-breeding: > > Quran 4:117-121 <http://quran.com/4/117-121> informs us that the > rebellious *Satan is cursed because he has sworn to take a portion of > humans *and that: > ‘… And I will mislead them, and I will arouse in them [sinful] desires, > and *I will command them so they will slit the ears of cattle, and I will > command them so they will change the creation of Allah* ." And whoever > takes Satan as an ally instead of Allah has certainly sustained a clear > loss. …’ > > Quran 17:61-66 <http://quran.com/17/61-66> relating the story when the > angels were ordered to prostrate to Adam, quotes Iblees' (Satan) *objection > to prostrate to one made of clay*, vowing that ‘*I will surely destroy > his descendants, except for a few*’. Granting Iblees respite till the Day > of Resurrection, he is given permission to: ‘Go, for whoever of them > follows you, indeed Hell will be the recompense of you - an ample > recompense. And incite [to senselessness] whoever you can among them with > your voice and assault them with your horses and foot soldiers and *become > a partner in their wealth and their children and promise them*.’ > [unquote] > > Leviticus 18-20 also forbids cross-breeding and related harmful practices. > > It is important to note that Iblis [Satan] is not unaware of God. He > acknowledges God, yet refuses to obey Him. He arrogantly considers himself > superior to another creation, and yet prays, to the same God he is daring > to disobey, to grant him respite to the Day of Judgement. In the narrative > in the Quran, Adam and his wife also err, tempted by Satan: 'Then Satan > whispered to him; he said, "O Adam, shall I direct you to the tree of > eternity and possession that will not deteriorate?" ' [ > http://quran.com/20/120]. Yet they humbly admit their error and turn to > God in repentance. Hence, the importance of humility, submission and piety, > the will to keep our duty to God. That, in my understanding, is what Faith > is all about: willful submission to the Will of God! > > Regards, > Samiya > > On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 12:52 AM, John Mikes <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Brent: >> did it slip your mind that your friend, the prez started the Arab >> Awakening by stabbing Mubarak in the back by his letter and supporting the >> US-enemy Morsi ("The first DEMOCRATICALLY(?) elected Egyptian prez and his >> Brotherhood!!!) together with his then Foreign Sec'y Hillary, giving >> billions in weapons etc. >> - then again he stuffed the investors' etc. pockets with our health-care >> billion dollars and >> sent further hundredthousand Americans to their demise in the Middle East >> (very few come home sane and safe) >> and so on and on. But he is a religious(?) chap. >> >> Atheism is more than just absence of belief IMO: it requires a >> supernatural to disbelief in it. I look at a 'religiously motivated >> violence' with suspicion since I still look for a fitting definition for >> 'religious'. I asked Samiya where does 'Satan' come into the picture in >> vain. IMO every thinking person starts out with SOME belief (e.g. the >> existence (reality?) of an infinite complexity we like to call 'WORLD'' of >> which we only know a small fraction.) >> >> Telmo's 'douchebag' is a criminal: he lured character-weak persons into >> his casinos to take their money (legitimately!) and added it to his >> billions. Every gambling Bigboss is a criminal. I saw too much in my 93 >> years so far. >> >> I am not an ''A"- THEIST, I am an ágnostic. >> >> JM >> >> >> On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 4:32 PM, meekerdb <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> On 8/9/2015 6:33 AM, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote: >>> >>> Brent, false! They killed to suppress religious belief, and exterminate >>> believers, >>> >>> >>> Nonsense. You've swallowed the religious propaganda. The killings were >>> purely punishment for opposing the regime or not working hard enough for it. >>> >>> and yes they were totalitarian and many atheists claim not to be. They >>> killed to support atheism, which is indisputable, >>> >>> >>> It's not only disputable, it's unevidenced. They didn't care what >>> people believed about the supernatural, just so they didn't oppose the >>> regime. >>> >>> and out of loyalty to Mao, Stalin, and your pal Bamers, Oops! Did I say >>> that? >>> >>> >>> You mean President Obama, the guy passed universal health insurance and >>> ended U.S. occupation of Iraq and has avoided getting us into a war in >>> Egypt, Yemen, Libya, Syria, Ukraine and all those other places you'd like >>> send your fellow citizens to attack? >>> >>> The bigger question is why doesn't religious belief or atheism reduce >>> violence? >>> >>> >>> Atheism is just and absence of belief, so it's not surprising that it >>> has little bearing on violence. It's only effect would be to reduce >>> religiously motivated violence, e.g. ISIS or the IRA. Religious beliefs >>> are all over the place, from,"Love everyone as your brother." to "If they >>> don't want to worship God kill them." >>> >>> Brent >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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