On Thu, Dec 24, 2015 at 4:24 AM, John Clark <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> > >> All I am saying is that ramming things down people's throats isn't >> working out so well. >> > > Civilized people wanted the Thirty Meter Telescope built, barbarians > did not. Yes the barbarians won > Interestingly, "barbarian" was a term invented by the Romans to refer to the Germanic tribes, and it comes com "barba" which is Latin for "beard". It was considered a gross display of masculinity, and thus uncivilized. You could say it was a Roman PC term. > but at least we tried, should we have surrendered to the army of darkness > and ignorance without even a fight? > Who's "we"? Did you participate in that effort? If so, can you tell us more about how it went down? Because all I'm saying is that calling other people "imbeciles" is usually not an effective negotiation strategy. > > > >> It would be nice to put a telescope in a certain mountain, but it's not >> our mountain, so tough shit. > > > What in hell makes it their mountain? What connection do > > they have have with it? How many have even been to the top? Astronomers > had plans for that mountain that could have enriched the entire human race, > the only plans the native Hawaiians have for it is to "bow down to it". > Cultural roots make things yours in a much deeper sense than any law can prescribe. > > >> > >> I am suggesting that something like the "prime directive" is probably a >> good idea. >> > > The > "prime directive" > is *BULLSHIT* because > its the soft racism of reduced expectations; it says don't teach the funny > little brown people modern ideas, > If our own civilization was sufficiently advanced to be considered one of benevolent teachers, you might have a point. Reality is not so nice, unfortunately. We try to bomb countries into democracy, we corrupt local governments to extract resources, play rigged financial games and impose belief systems through force and torture. Many "barbarian" tribes look at our way of life and are not so impressed. For example, they have a hard time understanding why you would let people live in the streets when there is more than enough housing for everybody. Or why we accept to spend our entire lives in cubicles under fluorescent lights. Or we Bradley Manning was treated. That was quite barbaric no? I still think we are the best that Earth has to offer at the moment, but let's not pretend our body odor smells like roses. To say something positive: yes, any ethnicity is free to enroll in western universities and learn about cosmology. Western universities are a wonderful thing and so are astronomers and their telescopes. > don't treat them as human beings, treat them as an endangered species like > a whooping crane because it's much more > colorful watching them dance the Hula and bow down to a mountain than to > expect them to understand cosmology. > > > >> > >> I used to think like you, but then >> [...] >> > > Political correctness took over. > In my view, political correctness is language policing. I am not trying to police language and I despise the idea. If anyone is preventing you to say what you think, I am against that person. On the other hand, I can also say what I think and I don't have to agree with you. > > > > > I realized that I was just addicted to outrage to make me feel good. We > get a shot of dopamine when we feel superior to others, > > I'm not the only one, I think a shot of dopamine shot through your > system when you read my post. > I'm still chasing the dragon. > > >> > >> but it doesn't really solve anything. >> > > > What would > , do you have a better idea > ? > My idea is the scientific idea: try to understand before acting and remain humble. Classifying them as barbarians and operating from that mindset is the sort of thing that mystics always did. You cannot fight superstition with more darkness. > The only practical advice I've heard from you is "tough shit". > > The astronomers tried to play nice, in a attempt to appease the barbarian > 4 of the 13 world class telescopes on the mountain that had been there for > years were removed, but the appeasement didn't work they still invaded > Poland, sorry I mean they still destroyed the magnificent Thirty Meter > Telescope. And their apatite for destruction *still* > wasn't > satiated, now they want the remaining 9 telescopes destroyed too. Why do > you defend these people? > > > >> >>> >> >>> There is indeed a living vibrant culture atop Mauna Kea, the culture of >>> astronomy, and the astronomers DO NOT want to be left alone, they want to >>> do things, and I think that is a culture we should respect. >>> >> >> > >> Why would you feel the need to write this? >> > > I wrote it because a group of fools has inflicted grievous harm to the > culture of astronomy and to civilization as a whole, and this is the one > place where I thought everyone would be as outraged over that as I was. I > was wrong. > > >> > >> Is there anyone on this list who doesn't like astronomers and their work? >> > > Apparently there is. I think somebody on this list once said it was > "tough shit" if astronomers can't do their work; I can't recall his name > but it's right on the tip of my tongue. > What do you want to do? Activate the police state against the native Hawaiians? Is that the sort of thing you want scientists to be associated with? Telmo. > > John K Clark > > > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
