On 24 December 2015 at 22:54, Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > On Thu, Dec 24, 2015 at 4:24 AM, John Clark <[email protected]> wrote: > >> On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >>> > >>> All I am saying is that ramming things down people's throats isn't >>> working out so well. >>> >> >> Civilized people wanted the Thirty Meter Telescope built, barbarians >> did not. Yes the barbarians won >> > > Interestingly, "barbarian" was a term invented by the Romans to refer to > the Germanic tribes, and it comes com "barba" which is Latin for "beard". > It was considered a gross display of masculinity, and thus uncivilized. You > could say it was a Roman PC term. > I've never heard that before. The usual etymology is that the Greeks used the term barbarian to refer to non-Greeks, because their language sounded to them like babbling - "bar-bar-bar". The Greeks were very arrogant (and sometimes still are). but at least we tried, should we have surrendered to the army of darkness >> and ignorance without even a fight? >> > > Who's "we"? Did you participate in that effort? If so, can you tell us > more about how it went down? Because all I'm saying is that calling other > people "imbeciles" is usually not an effective negotiation strategy. > > >> >> > >>> It would be nice to put a telescope in a certain mountain, but it's not >>> our mountain, so tough shit. >> >> >> What in hell makes it their mountain? What connection do >> >> they have have with it? How many have even been to the top? Astronomers >> had plans for that mountain that could have enriched the entire human race, >> the only plans the native Hawaiians have for it is to "bow down to it". >> > > Cultural roots make things yours in a much deeper sense than any law can > prescribe. > > >> >> >>> > >>> I am suggesting that something like the "prime directive" is probably a >>> good idea. >>> >> >> The >> "prime directive" >> is *BULLSHIT* because >> its the soft racism of reduced expectations; it says don't teach the >> funny little brown people modern ideas, >> > > If our own civilization was sufficiently advanced to be considered one of > benevolent teachers, you might have a point. Reality is not so nice, > unfortunately. We try to bomb countries into democracy, we corrupt local > governments to extract resources, play rigged financial games and impose > belief systems through force and torture. > > Many "barbarian" tribes look at our way of life and are not so impressed. > For example, they have a hard time understanding why you would let people > live in the streets when there is more than enough housing for everybody. > Or why we accept to spend our entire lives in cubicles under fluorescent > lights. Or we Bradley Manning was treated. That was quite barbaric no? > > I still think we are the best that Earth has to offer at the moment, but > let's not pretend our body odor smells like roses. To say something > positive: yes, any ethnicity is free to enroll in western universities and > learn about cosmology. Western universities are a wonderful thing and so > are astronomers and their telescopes. > > >> don't treat them as human beings, treat them as an endangered species >> like a whooping crane because it's much more >> colorful watching them dance the Hula and bow down to a mountain than to >> expect them to understand cosmology. >> >> >> >>> > >>> I used to think like you, but then >>> [...] >>> >> >> Political correctness took over. >> > > In my view, political correctness is language policing. I am not trying to > police language and I despise the idea. If anyone is preventing you to say > what you think, I am against that person. On the other hand, I can also say > what I think and I don't have to agree with you. > > >> >> >> > >> I realized that I was just addicted to outrage to make me feel good. We >> get a shot of dopamine when we feel superior to others, >> >> I'm not the only one, I think a shot of dopamine shot through your >> system when you read my post. >> > > I'm still chasing the dragon. > > >> >> >>> > >>> but it doesn't really solve anything. >>> >> >> >> What would >> , do you have a better idea >> ? >> > > My idea is the scientific idea: try to understand before acting and remain > humble. Classifying them as barbarians and operating from that mindset is > the sort of thing that mystics always did. You cannot fight superstition > with more darkness. > > >> The only practical advice I've heard from you is "tough shit". >> >> The astronomers tried to play nice, in a attempt to appease the barbarian >> 4 of the 13 world class telescopes on the mountain that had been there for >> years were removed, but the appeasement didn't work they still invaded >> Poland, sorry I mean they still destroyed the magnificent Thirty Meter >> Telescope. And their apatite for destruction *still* >> wasn't >> satiated, now they want the remaining 9 telescopes destroyed too. Why do >> you defend these people? >> > > >> >> >>> >>>> >> >>>> There is indeed a living vibrant culture atop Mauna Kea, the culture of >>>> astronomy, and the astronomers DO NOT want to be left alone, they want to >>>> do things, and I think that is a culture we should respect. >>>> >>> >>> > >>> Why would you feel the need to write this? >>> >> >> I wrote it because a group of fools has inflicted grievous harm to the >> culture of astronomy and to civilization as a whole, and this is the one >> place where I thought everyone would be as outraged over that as I was. I >> was wrong. >> > >> >>> > >>> Is there anyone on this list who doesn't like astronomers and their work? >>> >> >> Apparently there is. I think somebody on this list once said it was >> "tough shit" if astronomers can't do their work; I can't recall his name >> but it's right on the tip of my tongue. >> > > What do you want to do? Activate the police state against the native > Hawaiians? Is that the sort of thing you want scientists to be associated > with? > > Telmo. > > >> >> John K Clark >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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