On Sat, Dec 26, 2015 at 6:40 PM, John Clark <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 25, 2015 Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> wrote: > > >>> >>>> they >>>> [the >>>> Pirãha tribe >>>> ] >>>> have absolutely no interest in anything our civilization has to offer. >>>> >>> >>> >> >>> The >>> Pirãha tribe >>> has a great interest in some things our civilization has to offer, >>> things like >>> machetes, gunpowder, powdered milk, sugar >>> and >>> whiskey >>> , and they will happily trade Brazil nuts and sex to obtain them. >>> >> >> > >> I like them! >> > > And the > > Pirãha tribe > likes lots of things > our civilization has to offer > . Face it > Telmo > , the Noble Savage never existed. > I agree that the Noble Savage probably never existed. But it is also true that the idea that pre-agriculture societies lived short and brutish lives is probably bullshit. For example, there is very little evidence for the often repeated trope that life expectancy was 30, or that you had to spend your life afraid of predators. What I think is this: technological progress took over with the discovery of agriculture. Technological progress is orders of magnitude faster than biological evolution, and it is now by far the dominant force affecting our lives. But there is a problem: the reward signals in our brain are still adapted to the old times. I love science and technology, but I came to realize that the ideology of "progress at all costs" places some abstract notion as more important than human happiness. It's still puritanism, although now you have a lot of people who are zero-god-puritans. Notice that I am not saying that I am anti-telescope or anti-progress (although I am sure you will find a way to simplify my argument and accuse me of just that). What I am saying is that we have to be wise, and play with the card we were dealt. I too agree that public religion is something to overcome, but trying to do it quickly and by force has already been tried. We have the horrors of Stalinism to illustrate what happens when this is attempted. At the same time, it is possible to pervert Science (which is just modest empiricism) into a new type of public religion. We already discussed this extensively. There are now rovers in Mars. I'm sure space exploration will survive the temporary set-back with the Hawaiian mountain. Real life is made of trade-offs. > > >> >>> Homeless in NYC >>> would sound like paradise to some. >>> >>> A >>> >>> middle class citizen of Malawi >>> >>> makes 62 cents A DAY, a good panhandler in NYC can easily make a hundred >>> times as much, and >>> the >>> manhattanite >>> >>> has free access to garbage cans full of choice delicacies the >>> >>> Malawi >>> >>> guy can only dream about. And a >>> free >>> NYC soup kitchen >>> >>> and flop house would seem like a 4 star >>> restaurant and >>> hotel >>> to >>> a middle class citizen of Malawi. >>> >> >> > >> This is a ridiculous discussion, so I'll do my best. >> >> Google images for "middle class citizen in Malawi": >> >> https://www.google.pt/search?q=Malawi&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjshPq6hfjJAhUGXBoKHVCMDa0Q_AUIBygB&biw=1247&bih=675#tbm=isch&q=middle+class+citizen+in+Malawi >> > > I see lots of pictures of smiling children, > I'm sure even > Malawi > has something equivalent to a chamber of commerce and a tourist > information board. > > > >> Google images for "homeless in new york city": >> >> https://www.google.pt/search?q=homeless+in+nyc&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjE0v3PhfjJAhWMExoKHQrRAH4Q_AUIBygB&biw=1247&bih=675#tbm=isch&q=homeless+in+new+york+city >> > > I see lots of pictures of unsmiling old people. And it's quite true that > Malawi has no care of the elderly problem, that's because by the time the > average middle class citizen of Malawi living on his 62 cents a day has > reached his 55th birthday he's already been dead for 3 months. One > statistic is worth a thousand pictures. > What is the life expectancy of a homeless person in NYC? Look, of course I wouldn't want to live in Malawi. But I can also tell you this: mainstream media and local politics paint very distorted images of other societies. It's enough for me to be an European of visits the US once in a while, and see how each side portrays the other in a very distorted way. Telmo. > > John K Clark > > > > > >> >> >> >> >> >>> John K Clark >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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