On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 2:18 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: > > On 22 Apr 2017, at 23:58, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > > > On Sun, 23 Apr 2017 at 12:52 am, Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> > wrote: >> >> On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 6:12 AM, Brent Meeker <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> > >> > >> > On 4/21/2017 3:42 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> >> >> >> John is accusing you of naive dualism. He says that you claim that >> >> there is some mysterious substance (he finally called it a "soul") >> >> that is not copied in your thought experiment. What I claim is this: >> >> under physicalist assumptions, everything was copied. The problem is >> >> that physicalism leads to a contradiction, >> > >> > >> > I don't agree that it leads to a contradiction. Can spell out what that >> > contradiction is? >> >> Shortly (sorry for any lack of rigour): >> If you assume computationalism, the computation that is currently >> supporting your mind state can be repeated in time and space. Maybe >> your current computation happens in the original planet Earth but also >> in a Universal Dovetailer running on a Jupiter-sized computer in a >> far-away galaxy. Given a multiverse, it seems reasonable to assume >> that these repetitions are bound to happen (also with the simulation >> argument, etc.). And yet our mind states are experienced as unique. It >> follows that, given computationalism, mind cannot be spatially or >> temporally situated, thus cannot be physical. > > > It is possible - addressing just this argument - that while mind is not > localised it still needs to be implemented in a physical substrate. > > > Telmo was a bit short.
Indeed. > The full proof relies on the fact that the > computations are realized in arithmetic, and that a universal machine cannot > use primary matter in a magical (non Turing emulable, and non > FPI-recoverable) to select computations. Right, but I think it is interesting to explore the "there's still some physical substrate" hypothesis. It leads to this bizarre situation where there is a physical substrate -- that we don't know if it's our observable reality or not, nor do we have a way of knowing, and that must execute a certain computation at least once for the mind-moment associated with this computation to be possible. It cannot matter when, where or how many times the computation happens, and it doesn't make a difference if you change any of these parameters. It just cannot happen zero times. It's magic :) > Of course, a materialist could still say "yes" to the doctor, and, when > surviving, thanks God for its magical abilities, but this is no more > computationalism, but computationalism + magic. It is not scientifically > valid, as it uses God to prevent searching a solution, which is the bad use > of God, usually based on bad faith. It's all religion/ideology. Serious science is neither religion nor ideology, nor can it thrive inside the current Global Reality Show. Telmo. > Bruno > > > > >> In this case we avoid dualism by reverting things: ok, so it is time >> and space that are generated by mind. >> >> I think. >> >> Telmo. > > -- > Stathis Papaioannou > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
