On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 10:19 AM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote:
>> > >> OK that is the answer, but what is the question? Who is it we're >> talking about, who will or will not see Moscow and/or Washington? > > > > > Why do you ask? That was in the previous post. > No it was not, in fact the question is never made clear in any of your posts, not when people duplicating machines are thrown into the mix. > > > The question was "where do BM predicts BM will feel personally to be after > the experience", > OK but tell me Bruno, how many correct answers to the question "which city will BM feel feel to be personally i n after the duplication?" Do you think there is only one correct answer or are there two? I say two and I can subpoena W-BM and M-BM as witnesses to bolster my case. If you say only one then which city did it turn out to be, Moscow or Washington? I agree that if back in Helsinki if the question was "how many cities will W-BM feel to be in after the duplication?" then the correct answer would have been one, but that wasn't the question. > > > BM can only predict with certainty that BM will see only one city. > Not that prediction has anything to do with a sense of self or personal identity but if BM were smart BM could predict that W-BM will see only one city and it will be Washington and M-BM will see only one city and it will be Moscow and BM will see both cities. > > T > he best prediction BM can do is "only once city, > W-BM says I am Bruno Marchal and I see Washington. M-BM says I am Bruno Marchal and I see Moscow. So if the question is "how many cities will BM see how can the correct answer be "only one"? And if it was only one which one did it turn out to be, was it Washington or Moscow? > > > but I am currently unable to predict which one". > Currently? As you've set it up nobody can say which one and only one city turned out to be correct even AFTER the experiment is over. And if the terms are so muddled in a experiment that after completion nobody can tell if a theory made a correct prediction or not then it's not a experiment, it's not even a thought experiment, it's just a lot of sound and fury signifying nothing. > > And, that is confirmed by both BM after the experience is done. > Then which *ONE* City was it? You should be able to answer that question with one word and that one word is Moscow OR that one word is Washington. And if you can't do that then it's not a thought experiment or a experiment of any kind. > >>> >> >>> computationalism makes impossible that any BM will feel to see both >>> cities, >> >> > >> >> >> That's not true either. After the duplication the two Bruno Marchals >> enjoyed both Washington and Moscow for 24 hours, > > > > Yes, but not at once, > At exactly the same time. You like diaries so I'll give both Brunos diaries and watches synchronized by atomic clocks so they can both write about what they saw and the exact time they saw it. >> >> after that the process was reversed and they merged back together again >> into one person, but all the memories of both were retained. So today you >> (that personal pronoun can be safely used because there is only one Bruno >> marchal again) have vivid memories of both Moscow and Washington at exactly >> the same time. So 2 days ago back in Helsinki the correct answer to the >> question "what city will you see?" would be "both". > > > > > That does not follow. > Why not? The remerged Bruno Marchal vividly remembers writing in his diary "It is 17:23:33 Coordinated Universal Time on 4-28-2017 and I am looking at the White House " . And the remerged Bruno Marchal also vividly remembers writing in his diary " It is 17:23:33 Coordinated Universal Time on 4-28-2017 and I am looking at the Kremlin ". And I have access to both diaries so I know Bruno's memory is not faulty. > > > he has to perceive his double trips are having been non simultaneous at > the time they were lived. > Why does he have to? If they were non simultaneous then which city came first, Moscow or Washington? And everything in the setup is symmetrical so what is the source of this time asymmetry? > > > If the experience is repeated, BM will still be indeterminate about the > future immediate outcome. > BM is equally clueless about the past outcome. The only thing that is indeterminate is the muddled nature of the question. > > >> I don't even know if BM can experience anything at all, maybe BM is a >> zombie. But I do know both >> >> W-JKC and M-JKC would say the correct answer back in Helsinki would have >> been JKC will see both cities. > > > > > Correct for the prediction of the 1-view from the 3p view, > If you put a gun to my head I couldn't say what " 1-view from the 3p view " means, and Google doesn't know either. > > but incorrect, as both the W-JKC and M-JKC have to admit they got a bit of > information, > Not if the bit of information W-JKC got was M-JKC saw Moscow, then W-JKC would say that the correct answer back in Helsinki would have been "JKC will see both cities". > > > So here, you just ignore again the question asked. > Ask me a clear question and I'll either give you a clear answer or say I don't know. But not every sequence of words is a question, not even if it has a question mark at the end. > > the W-BM, and the M-BM understand that BM could not have predicted in > Helsinki the current W specific result that the W-BM is living now, > What are you talking about? In Helsinki it would have been very easy for BM to predict that W-BM will see W, after all the Helsinki man doesn't become W-BM and then see W, instead he sees W and that experience turns him into W-BM. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
