On 12/4/2017 5:07 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 02 Dec 2017, at 04:55, Brent Meeker wrote:
On 12/1/2017 6:35 PM, David Nyman wrote:
I think it likely that ability in humans co-evolved with the
development of language. Did you ever read Julian Jaynes "The
Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind"?
You betcha! A paradigm shifter if ever I read one though it's many
years since. It always struck me as perfectly plausible in general
direction even if no particular detail of Jaynes's speculations were
precisely accurate.
Yeah, I started it with the attitude, "That's an interesting idea but
there couldn't possibly be any evidence to support it even if it's
true." But when I finished it I thought, "Damn, he didn't prove his
theory but he did pretty well supporting it."
I share this feeling. Jayne uses "consciousness" in a more particular
sense than we usually use it here, though, it is more the high level
reflective consciousness, and not the primitive one we share with most
animals---and perhaps plants ... :)
Right. And I have frequently brought up the different kinds of
consciousness: perception, self location, instrumental reflection,
social reflection, self reflection. Some of those require language
which evolves among social animals (even wolves have a simple
language). But in the past you have rejected this, saying that
consciousness is unitary and marked by understanding something like
mathematical induction.
Brent
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