On 4 December 2017 at 13:16, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
> > On 02 Dec 2017, at 00:48, David Nyman wrote: > > On 1 December 2017 at 17:45, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote: > >> >> On 28 Nov 2017, at 01:28, David Nyman wrote: >> >> https://www.sciencealert.com/your-consciousness-does-not-swi >> tch-off-during-a-dreamless-sleep-say-scientists >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Wonderful! Thanks! It confirms Mechanism, both the one of Descartes and >> the "theology" of the machine. And the salvia plant! >> >> I have always personally suspect this "experientially", noticing that the >> reason we "miss" it is that it very hard to memorize. It confirms the idea >> that non-consciousness is relative amnesia, less neurons makes you more >> conscious, the brain is something like a filter, nature is a product of >> contemplation (Plotinus!),... >> > > Yes, funnily enough I've always strongly suspected there to be a very > tight relation between what we mean by consciousness, or at least > self-consciousness, and certain features of memory. One reason was > suggested by clinical cases of catastrophic damage to short term memory, > where anything beyond the last five minutes or so is immediately forgotten. > In one case featured in a BBC documentary, the unfortunate sufferer > witnessed a video of himself conducting an orchestra (he was a professional > musician and oddly enough could still conduct music with which he was > already familiar). Since he had no memory of having done it, and ultimately > conceding that it was indeed himself that he was witnessing, he concluded > "Then I must have been unconscious". > > Another aspect of this is that if, in imagination, you progressively > reduce the duration of your effective short term memory, at some point you > will intuit that you have become effectively 'unconscious', or at least > un-self-conscious, > > > Yes. That nuance is the key. Note that some meditation technic leads to > what you say. When we succeed in calming down our thought and mind, short > term memory becomes useless somehow, and "I" disappear. But like sleep, one > car in the street can wake you up from that state. > > > > as you will be unable to imagine formulating an articulate thought or > possibly even assembling a coherent series of sense impressions or > intuitions. > > > Yes, that is where the "I" plays its role of coherence builder. > > > > On reflection, phenomenal consciousness could plausibly be characterised > in essence as the successive, coherent construction and 'memorisation' of > momentary, dynamical perspectives. It is only memory that links and weaves > such momentary phenomenal perspectives into coherent spatial-temporal > narratives. > > > It is the building of the "model/reality", but it makes sense only through > some reality, and consciousness is on the side of that reality, which lead > to the utter counter-intuitive idea that to get individual coherence, we > need a brain making us less conscious in some sense. But I will not insist > on this ... today. > I do know what you mean though. In the eternal battle between remembering and forgetting, the latter must inevitably achieve an almost total victory. But that 'almost' is the difference between something and nothing. David > > Bruno > > > > > David > > >> Since 2008 I write in a diary all my salvia experiences, but also tobacco >> experience, occasional cannabis experience, occasional alcohol experiences, >> and the usual coffee experiences and actually any pertinent, for the >> consciousness study, experiences (as they all influences the outcomes). >> Since 2008, the first salvia experience, the mentions of the deep-sleep >> consciousness experiences has grown up systematically, and since some years >> they are mentionned almost every morning. It is very weird. I made once >> two "perpendicular sort-of-dreams", which brought my attention on relations >> between quantum logic and octonions, which I found also in a very >> interesting paper by John Baes. This plunges me back in my feeling that >> little numbers could quickly play a special role, like the number 24, and >> the exceptional simple groups, and relation between groups of permutations >> of solution of diophantine polynomials. We understand the metamathematical >> content of arithmetic through big numbers >> (indeed Gödel represented "2+2=4", that is >> >> "ffa+ffa=ffffa" , (with f, a, +, = equal to even numbers: f is 3, a is 5, >> + is 7, = is 9) >> >> by >> >> (2^f)(3^f)(5^a)(7^+)(11^f)(13^f)(17^a)(19^=)(23^f)(29^f)(31^ >> f)(37^f)(39^a) >> >> which is an astromical numbers. Today we use efficient coding, of course, >> which adds intensional and modal relations. But it could be that little >> numbers have already a rich and deep metamathematical content, arithmetic >> would understand itself more quickly than our apparent current detour >> through a quantum vacuum fluctuation going wrong make us to think... >> >> Otto Rossler once summed up Descartes Mechanism with "consciousness is a >> prison". Mechanism seems a bit pernicious, as it predicts somehow that we >> might get the solution of the mind-body problem when we die, or "sleep" >> deep enough (cf Shakespeare), unfortunately we don't memorize, and our >> billions years of prejudices can strikes back in a second. >> >> Very interesting (and relevant) studies! >> >> Bruno >> >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> >> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >> >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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