On 04 Dec 2017, at 21:51, Brent Meeker wrote:
On 12/4/2017 5:07 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 02 Dec 2017, at 04:55, Brent Meeker wrote:
On 12/1/2017 6:35 PM, David Nyman wrote:
I think it likely that ability in humans co-evolved with the
development of language. Did you ever read Julian Jaynes "The
Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind"?
You betcha! A paradigm shifter if ever I read one though it's
many years since. It always struck me as perfectly plausible in
general direction even if no particular detail of Jaynes's
speculations were precisely accurate.
Yeah, I started it with the attitude, "That's an interesting idea
but there couldn't possibly be any evidence to support it even if
it's true." But when I finished it I thought, "Damn, he didn't
prove his theory but he did pretty well supporting it."
I share this feeling. Jayne uses "consciousness" in a more
particular sense than we usually use it here, though, it is more
the high level reflective consciousness, and not the primitive one
we share with most animals---and perhaps plants ... :)
Right. And I have frequently brought up the different kinds of
consciousness: perception, self location, instrumental reflection,
social reflection, self reflection. Some of those require language
which evolves among social animals (even wolves have a simple
language). But in the past you have rejected this, saying that
consciousness is unitary and marked by understanding something like
mathematical induction.
I know that you are under that impression, but I did reject only that
consciousness is not "1 or 0", i.e. either we are conscious or not.
But I am particularly aware that there are many different sort of
consciousness state, indeed the "altered one", etc.
Turing universality does not require "induction", and is already
enough for being "conscious" (a non standard dissociative state,
though). Induction is the thing required for the high level form of
reflexive consciousness (Löbianity). It makes the universal machine
aware of its universality (and the bad consequences which go with it).
Bruno
Brent
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