On Tuesday, September 25, 2018 at 12:01:22 PM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
>
> On 25 Sep 2018, at 15:35, Philip Thrift <cloud...@gmail.com <javascript:>>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, September 25, 2018 at 7:12:13 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 24 Sep 2018, at 07:28, Philip Thrift <cloud...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sunday, September 23, 2018 at 10:55:52 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On 23 Sep 2018, at 13:37, Philip Thrift <cloud...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sunday, September 23, 2018 at 4:41:56 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 23 Sep 2018, at 09:00, Philip Thrift <cloud...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sunday, September 23, 2018 at 1:28:02 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 22 Sep 2018, at 11:40, Philip Thrift <cloud...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Saturday, September 22, 2018 at 2:48:15 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 21 Sep 2018, at 19:55, John Clark <johnk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 7:20 PM Philip Thrift <cloud...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >> Mind is what a brain does
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> >*And walking and running is what the legs do. *
>>>>>>> *There is no "walking" like some Platonic immaterial universal
>>>>>>> except for some pair of legs to be doing it.*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Right, there is no thinking without a brain (biological or
>>>>>> electronic) to do it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Assuming your ontological commitment, but that is pseudo-religion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Or equivalently: you confuse matter and primitive matter. Nobody
>>>>>> doubt that to have human or biological consciousness, we need a human
>>>>>> brain
>>>>>> or some electronic device, but that is irrelevant.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What has been proved, (see Kleene’s 1952 book) is that the
>>>>>> arithmetical reality emulates all computations. No need of any more
>>>>>> assumption than Church thesis and the very elementary arithmetic.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But an ontological physical reality is only metaphysical speculation
>>>>>> or hypothesis, and in our setting it is invalid to use it as a
>>>>>> counter-argument. The most you can do, if you really want to take your
>>>>>> ontology for granted, is to reject Digital Mechanism or to find a
>>>>>> mistake
>>>>>> in my argument, without using your ontological commitment (which would
>>>>>> beg
>>>>>> the question).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Up to now, you have failed to that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bruno
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> It still seems to me that consciousness itself could be an argument
>>>>> against a purely information-based ontology. ("Information" meaning based
>>>>> purely on numbers, combinators, etc.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Philip Goff and Michael Shermer discussed basically this:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://scottbarrykaufman.com/podcast/solving-the-mysteries-of-consciousness-free-will-and-god-with-michael-shermer-and-philip-goff/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> via https://twitter.com/Philip_Goff/status/1043053992916467714
>>>>>
>>>>> (In there there is an about 1 hour podcast.)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> My summary (fits in a tweet) of Goff:
>>>>>
>>>>> "Physicalism, based on pure informationality (quantitative states and
>>>>> language} is not sufficient to explain consciousness, but a materialism
>>>>> (one greater than physicalism) that is based on experientiality
>>>>> (qualitative states and language) in addition to informationality, may
>>>>> be.”
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That is short. You might elaborate. I can refer you to my papers which
>>>>> shows that you cannot have both materialism/physicalism and Mechanism.
>>>>> Many
>>>>> believe that materialism and mechanism go well together, but they are
>>>>> logically incompatible. With mechanism, physics is reduced to arithmetic
>>>>> “seen from inside”.
>>>>>
>>>>> I would say that mechanism explains rather well consciousness, through
>>>>> computer science and the logic of self-reference ((which basically
>>>>> predict
>>>>> consciousness (indubitable, non provable and non definable sort of
>>>>> knowledge), but with the price of forcing to drive the physical
>>>>> appearance
>>>>> from that theory of consciousness.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bruno
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> That was my reply in a tweet to Goff's [
>>>> https://twitter.com/Philip_Goff/status/1043053992916467714 ] to
>>>> summarize in my own words the Goff view.
>>>>
>>>> I elaborate further in my previous post here on *Realistic
>>>> Computationalism*:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/ZDKbxJuQYt4/Z7C1ePCzAwAJ
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> By Pure Computationalism [
>>>> https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/computation-physicalsystems ] I
>>>> mean that everything
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Which everything? What are your basic metaphysical assumption?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> can be seen as computation with quantitative information (numbers,
>>>> basically) alone.
>>>>
>>>> Given Goff's definition of physicalism, physicalism is consistent with
>>>> (pure) computationalism. But it's not sufficient for consciousness (Goff,
>>>> Strawson) , even if computation is extended to hypercomputation.
>>>>
>>>> But then materialism > physicalism (i-states + e-states > i-states).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> At this stage materialism and physicalism can be identified, and we can
>>>> add nuances later.
>>>>
>>>> But with computationalism, neither materialism (even weak, the belief
>>>> in some matter not reducible to something else) nor physicalism are
>>>> consistent with Mechanism. A short argument can be find here:
>>>>
>>>> B. Marchal. The Origin of Physical Laws and Sensations. In 4th
>>>> International System Administration and Network Engineering Conference,
>>>> SANE 2004, Amsterdam, 2004.
>>>>
>>>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/publications/SANE2004MARCHALAbstract.html
>>>> (sane04)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> More details are given here:
>>>>
>>>> Marchal B. The computationalist reformulation of the mind-body problem.
>>>> Prog Biophys Mol Biol; 2013 Sep;113(1):127-40
>>>>
>>>> Marchal B. The Universal Numbers. From Biology to Physics, Progress in
>>>> Biophysics and Molecular Biology, 2015, Vol. 119, Issue 3, 368-381.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bruno
>>>>
>>>>
>>> As far as I can tell from the summaries:
>>>
>>> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S007961071300028X
>>> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0079610715000887
>>>
>>> Realistic Computationalism (*RealComp*) is still greater than Pure
>>> Computationalism (PureComp, or just Comp, which includes all in the above
>>> two references)
>>>
>>> and it is basically Philip Goff's view:
>>>
>>> PureComp emulates how things behave, but not how they are in themselves.
>>>
>>>
>>> Good. In arithmetic computable entails arithmetic, but most attribute of
>>> the computable thing are not computable, that is why the machine will be
>>> identify with her beliefs, and this makes each machine very different, that
>>> is how consciousness differentiate in arithmetic to begin with.
>>>
>>> Bruno
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> In your *Progress in Biophysics & Molecular Biology* papers (which I'd
>> like to see),
>>
>>
>> Just ask. I will send you some papers I have published there.
>>
>>
>>
>> it would be interesting to see how this relates to *reflection* (the
>> subject beginning with Brian Cantwell Smith's fundamental thesis) in
>> programming language theory. (This is the study of code that is
>> "self-aware", can reason about and modify itself, etc.)
>>
>>
>> Are you talking about FOL and its lisp-like tower?. That is an
>> interesting (albeit a bit naive metaphysically) approach. If you like
>> Smith, you should like the general (and much older) theory, which is
>> actually the theory of any universal machine when studying itself. But
>> Smith belongs to the mechanist family, no doubt.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> In the case of consciousness, if it is something beyond pure
>> informational processing - which a lot of physicists think physics just is
>> (Tegmark, Carroll, ...) - it could be that chemistry and/or biology is not
>> reducible to physics = not reducible to pure informational processing.
>>
>> This is called *nonreductive materialism*.
>>
>>
>> You might read the sane paper (already available on my URL, see above).
>> Mechanism protects the machine from (basically) all reductionism,
>> including the 19th century conception of machine and numbers, and it shows
>> rather directly that (reductive and non reductive) materialism are both
>> inconsistent with mechanism.
>>
>> Bruno
>>
>>
>>
>>
> If you have PDFs of
>
>
> Marchal B. The computationalist reformulation of the mind-body problem.
> Prog Biophys Mol Biol; 2013 Sep;113(1):127-40
>
> Marchal B. The Universal Numbers. From Biology to Physics, Progress in
> Biophysics and Molecular Biology, 2015, Vol. 119, Issue 3, 368-381.
>
> I will read those [ email: cloudversed at gmail dot com ].
>
>
>
> Done.
>
>
>
>
>
> I have read
> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/publications/SANE2004MARCHALAbstract.html
>
> Two points:
>
> 1. Nonreductive materialism holds that physicalism is false.
> see, for example, https://people.umass.edu/lrb/files/bak06agaM.pdf
>
>
> Indeed. But Comùputationalism, aka Digital Mechanism, makes all form of
> metaphysical materialism either inconsistent or spurious (like involving
> involving epicycles or worst “invisible horses”, violating Occam in a some
> strong sense).
>
>
>
>
> (Physicalism came from the idea that everything can be reduced to
> physics, which turns out to be models of purely quantitative information.
> See Tegmark's Mathematical Universe.)
>
>
> That can be a subject of discussion later. Tegmark’s form of
> mathematicalism is still physicalism, although not materialism. But he has
> progressed toward computationalism, certainly.
>
>
>
> 2. A computation (what I call real computation) that incorporates
> experiential states (e-states) in addition to informational states
> (i-states) would be be different from any i-state-only computation
>
>
> Very good! That is recovered in the discourse of the machine which
> introspect itself (in the the Gödel-Kleene mathematical precise). To
> confuse a i-state-only and a e-state, is akin to a confusion between first
> person and third person, or a confusion between []p and []p & p. That is
> also part of the debate between in between the neoplatonist theologians. A
> good book illustrating this “Ancient Epistemology,” by Gerson (an expert on
> Plotinus). You might study my PDF on how I “translate” Plotinus in
> Arithmetic through the nuance brought by incompleteness on “provability”.
> Incompleteness makes it from the machine perspective into believability,
> and by disguishing truth and provability, it gives sense to the standard
> theory of knowledge of Theaetetus, and it enforces different logics and
> mathematics for believability, knowability, observability, sensibility.
> Incompleteness also divides those logics into a machine justifiable (and
> representational part) and a non justifiable part (still representational)
> added with non representational, non represensatble part.
>
> The observable is the invariant in the ‘bettable', on all (halting)
> computation (multiplied somehow by the non halting one), that is, with []
> for Gödel’s beweisbar arithmetical modality (the “Löbian Machine”), what
> you can “meta-represent” through []p & <>t, and []p & <>t & p. I can
> motivate for those definition both through through experience, and by using
> the standard definition of the neoplatonist philosopher/théologian.
>
>
>
>
>
> (that means any Turing or hyper-Turing or reflective-Turing machine, or
> anything made of just "numbers”).
>
>
> Maybe you could define what you mean by hyper-Turing machine. I have heard
> different definitions.
>
> Nor am I sure what you mean by made of just numbers. What I assume is that
> there is a level of description of my “physical body” such that I would
> survive if my “physical body” is emulated at that level, and this
> relatively to the normal physical continuations.
>
> Many people miss that universal machine (sigma_1 complete theories are
> such) are confronted to the non computable, and the first person
> indeterminacy entails that below our substitution level, we are emulated by
> infinitely many universal number/machine.
>
>
>
>
> The latter may emulate consciousness, but will not *be* conscious.
>
>
> Equivalently the consciousness weigh will be of measure null, may be, or
> you introduce weird zombies.
>
> Or you talk about the oracle, the gods are not conscious, I can make some
> sense of this, but I would judge all possible notion of oracle. The usual
> sigma_1 machine cannot distinguish an oracle with a machine more complex
> than itself. Yet by reasoning we can understand that the sigma_1 machine
> are confronted with some oracle, and “time” is a sort of halting oracle
> (yet not self-halting oracle) in the limit.
>
> People must be careful that the digital surgeon provides them with an
> authentic Turing machine, or combinator, or any universal number, and not
> with an hyper-Turing machine.
>
>
>
>
> (Whether a conscious brain can be be manufactured with totally different
> elements depends on the e-states different matter can have.)
>
>
>
> I prefer to not assume matter. My point is that IF we can survive a
> digital brain transplant at some level, then physics is reduced to a
> statistics on first person experience on a universal dovetailing (aka the
> set of all true sigma_1 sentence structured by some modalities of
> self-reference.
>
> The beauty here is that G* shows that all modalities are confronted to the
> same (sigma_1) truth, but the machine cannot not structured in a non
> equivalent way (yet related).
>
>
>
>
>
>
> We can only make things out of matter, and we can only make new matter
> with the matter we have.
>
>
>
> I guess you have to say no to the digitalis surgeon. All what I say is IF
> Digital Mechanism is correct, then physics has to be extracted from the
> modalities of self-reference, and so we can test it. Up to now, the Matter
> modalities do obey quantum logics, and the hope is that they are enough
> “hilbertian” to have an equivalent of (arithmetic termed) Gleason theorem.
>
> Matter exists phenomenologically with Mechanism, but what exist
> ontologically is any term of any Turing complete theory, or Turing
> universal machine.
>
> It looks we might work in very different theory.
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
Thanks!
By hyper-Turing I just mean computing related to doing hyperarithmetic
(with Turing jumps, etc.)
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperarithmetical_theory ].
I think a difference between universal computationalism (or pure
computationalism) and real computationalism (the "real" word I take from
Galen Strawson) is my real computationalism is something of a more
practical (or pragmatist, or even engineering) perspective than a purely
theoretical perspective:
*PTLOS(π,λ,τ,ο,Σ) = program, language, transformer(compiler/assembler),
object, substrate*
[ draft at
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/ZDKbxJuQYt4/Z7C1ePCzAwAJ
to be updated soon ]
- pt
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