> On 4 May 2019, at 00:08, [email protected] wrote: > > > Well we know some matter has a psychical aspect: human brains. > > Unless one is a consciousness denier. > - https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2018/03/13/the-consciousness-deniers/ > <https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2018/03/13/the-consciousness-deniers/> > > @philipthrift
But we don’t know if PRIMITIVE matter exist. That is a strong assumption in Metaphysics. That is why it is already seen as a god in both Plato and Aristotle. But invoking God in an argument is invalid. No problem if you assume it as an hypothesis, then my work give you an argument that we are not Turing emulable, which seems to me to make thing complex for no reason, except making mechanism false. It confirms, what has been debated already a lot here, that it confirms that non-mechanism is a sort of racism. It evokes a God (even if a non personal one) just to make some entities into zombie. Non-mechanist should wait for some evidence of non-mechanism at least. Bruno > > > > On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 4:58:04 PM UTC-5, Terren Suydam wrote: > Panpsychism of any flavor that identifies matter with a psychic aspect is > subject to the problems I described earlier. > > It never occurred to me to google something like "theoretical psychology" > <https://www.google.com/search?q=theoretical+psychology> but there's a lot > there. How much of it is interesting, I don't know. > > I think as we flesh out the connectome, theoretical psychology will take on > more legitimacy and importance. > > > On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 5:16 PM <[email protected] <javascript:>> wrote: > > There is a whole spectrum of panpsychisms (plural) - from micropsychism to > cosmophychism: > > https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/panpsychism/ > <https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/panpsychism/> > cf. https://www.iep.utm.edu/panpsych/ <https://www.iep.utm.edu/panpsych/> > > That is not a "real science" yet is its basic problem of course. But > consciousness science in general really isn't yet either. > > One would think there would be a group of theoretical psychologists - there > is theoretical physics, chemistry, and biology, but theoretical psychology is > in a much weirder state - who would be involved. > > @philipthrift > > > On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 3:48:40 PM UTC-5, Terren Suydam wrote: > My question for panpsychists is similar to my question for Cosmin: what does > it buy you in terms of explanations or predictions? > > Just blanket-asserting that all matter is conscious doesn't tell me anything > about consciousness itself. For example, what would it mean for my > fingernails to be conscious? Does my fingernail consciousness factor in > somehow to my own experience of consciousness? If so, how? What about all > the other parts of my body, about individual cells? Does the bacteria living > in my body contribute its consciousness somehow? It quickly runs aground on > the same rocks that arguments about "soul" do - there's no principled way to > talk about it that elucidates relationships between brains, bodies, and > minds. Panpsychism does nothing to explain the effect of drugs on > consciousness, or brain damage. Like Cosmin's ideas, it's all just post-hoc > rationalization. Panpsychism is the philosophical equivalent of throwing your > hands up and saying "I dunno, I guess it's all conscious somehow!" > > What I'm suggesting posits that consciousness arises from the cybernetic > organization of a system, that what the system experiences, as a whole, is > identified with the informational-dynamics captured by that organization. > This yields explanations for the character of a given system's > consciousness... something panpsychism cannot do. > > Terren > > On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 3:57 PM <[email protected] <>> wrote: > > I see the coin made (as the ones lying on my desk right now made of metal) of > matter. > > The two sides of the coin (of matter) are physical and psychical: > > https://codicalist.wordpress.com/2019/01/22/matter-gets-psyched/ > <https://codicalist.wordpress.com/2019/01/22/matter-gets-psyched/> > > > If ὕ – the first Greek letter for “hyle”, upsilon (υ) with diacritics dasia > and oxia (U+1F55) – is used for the symbol of matter, φ (phi) for physical, + > ψ (psi) for psychical, then > > > > ὕ = φ + ψ > > (i.e., the combination of physical and psychical properties is a more > complete view of what matter is). The physical is the (quantitative) > behavioral aspect of matter – the kind that is formulated in mathematical > language in current physics, for example – whereas the psychical is the > (qualitative) experiential aspect of matter, at various levels, from brains > on down. There is no reason in principle for only φ to the considered by > science and for ψ to be ignored by science. > > > @philipthrift > > > > On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 2:10:05 PM UTC-5, Terren Suydam wrote: > I see them as two sides of the same coin - as in, you don't get one without > the other. > > On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 3:00 PM <[email protected] <>> wrote: > > > If "consciousness doesn't supervene on physical [or material] computation" > then does that mean there is realm for (A) consciousness and one for (B) > physical [or material] computation? > > Is A like some spirit or ghost that invades the domain of B? Or does B invade > A? > > @philipthrift > > > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list > <https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. 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