> On 5 May 2019, at 15:25, Terren Suydam <[email protected]> wrote: > > You keep trotting out the term "cybernetic delusion" as if it's a problem. > But it's just an assumption I make, that consciousness is identified with > cybernetic dynamics.
I guess what you mean, but sometimes the devil is in the details, especially when discussing fundamental matter. Cybernetics dynamics, without further precision is typically 3p. Consciousness is typically 1p, so we can associate them, but we cannot identify them, and indeed, with mechanism, the conscious person cannot identify its consciousness with anything 3p describable, but it can still associate it to all machine simulating him/her at the relevant level (in arithmetic or equivalent). To call mechanism an illusion is indeed not a scientific attitude, unless it is a confusion of a reasoning, which seems to not be the case. > I'm exploring the consequences of that idea, which are compelling IMO. > > You or anyone else can feel free to adopt or not adopt that assumption. But > it's not a delusion. Calling it that suggests there's a more correct way to > view consciousness. But you haven't been clear about what that is, > vacillating between "only certain kinds of matter can be conscious" and "all > matter is conscious". If you adopt panpsychism, you fall prey to the > cybernetic delusion yourself. And when you don't, you fail to explain what > privileges certain kinds of matter over others. It seems pretty clear to me > that there's no principled way to do that... any explanation of why brains > can be conscious but not computers starts to sound suspiciously like "spirit" > and "soul", in the sense that you're invoking some property of matter that > cannot be detected. Yes, we wait for a theory. Bruno > > Terren > > On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 4:57 AM <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > > On Saturday, May 4, 2019 at 8:30:00 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: > On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 9:15 PM 'Cosmin Visan' <[email protected] > <>> wrote: > > > > What happens in cases of telepathy is [...]. For example, in cases of dream > > telepathy [...] This clearly is a case of dream telepathy. > > OK, there was little doubt before but you just made it official, Cosmin Visan > is a crackpot. > > John K Clark > > > > > > Telepathy I doubt pretty bigly, but the cybernetic delusion is a really > crackpot idea. > > @philipthrift > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list > <https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list > <https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/8DBDF466-43F2-411F-950E-79269534A669%40ulb.ac.be. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
