On 5/15/2019 11:45 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 13 May 2019, at 22:20, Jason Resch <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 6:08 AM Bruno Marchal <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
On 9 May 2019, at 20:47, Jason Resch <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 12:06 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything
List <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
On 5/9/2019 3:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 3 May 2019, at 15:27, Terren Suydam
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
wrote:
One way to get around this is to hold that consciousness
is associated with the way information is processed.
That is mechanism, but then you inherit infinitely many
body-representation in arithmetic, and the mind-body
problem becomes in part a justification of the appearances
from a statistic to all computations going through our
brain. Then incompleteness explains what this take the
shape of a quantum reality.
This is substrate independent - the fact that a brain is
physical is beside the point. You could implement a brain
in software, and insofar as the same kinds of information
processing occur, it would be conscious in the same kind
of way.
Only if it exists in the same kind of world.
Church-Turing implies that the world is irrelevant, so long as
it is possible to build a computer in some universe,
In some reality (usually people understand “physical universe”
when we use the term “universe”, but the reality needs only to be
anything Turing complete, so the arithmetical reality is a
universe in the general sense: it runs all programs.
it is possible to instantiate/access any conscious state from
that universe. This is little different from saying you could
have a representation of the first 100 binary digits of Pi in
many different kinds of universes, so long as their physics
allows for digital representations.
Deep-Blue running on a computer in this universe is the same
Deep Blue as one running in an a computer in the Game-of-Life
universe, or on a computer in an alternate (of the 10^500) other
string theory universes. CT implies it is impossible for any
software to determine its underlying hardware, and this in
determinism extends to the underlying physics of that hardware.’
Actually I disagree here. The hardware eventually is absolute, as
it is a first person projection on infinitely many computation.
We would not have found Quantum Mechanics, we could rightly
suspect mechanism to be false, or to be in a malevolent
“bostromian” simulation.
You are right when you say that CT makes impossible for a machine
to determine which universal machine run it, by introspection,
but the machine can know that below its substitution level, the
hardware is an emerging pattern from all computations relative to
the actual state. That is why physics becomes derivable from
arithmetic or from any Turing universal theory.
Doesn't the ability to determine whether you are supported by
arithmetical computations vs. a simulation one hinge on the capacity
to make (and remember the result of) measurements of what exists
below one's substitution level?
Yes. That happens in the normal reality. If you look below your
substitution level, you see the witnessing of the “parallel
computations”, and they have to obey to the material mode (quantum
mode apparently).
But imagine that you are sent, without knowing, in a virtual reality.
Then, if it is rough, you will surely guess that you are in a virtual
reality, like in a lucid dream, or like in a video game.
This is incoherent. If you are the series of computations there is no
perspective from which you can see you are in a dream. You only
recognize dreams by comparing them to reality.
But the “malevolent” want to fail you, so he make a more precise
simulation, and then a more precise. At some point, if the simulation
is totally correct, you will, from your first person view, be
continued again by the arithmetical computations, and “you” are in the
arithmetic again, with the right physics. Or he does again only an
approximation, and again, you will depart from the physical reality,
and it is like seeing the pixels, even if this is made in a more
sophisticated way, by testing directly the semantics of X1*, or
testing Bell’s inequality, etc.
What is the meaning of "below substitution level" for a mind
completely disconnected from its environment, like Deep-Blue engaged
in repeated games of self-play?
It is like addiction, or obsession, losing yourself in a “non normal”
game. Maybe Deep Blue was a not good example. If you disconnect
yourself completely from the environment, I speculate that you get the
initial consciousness experience, of the “virgin” universal machine.
It is like a “out-of-body experience” except that it is deeper, more
like an out-of-reality experience. You get a consciousness state which
is out of time, out of space, out of everything. Total amnesia, and
amazingly enough some Recall, but hardly memorable. I guess all this.
Similar state are described in various reports of experience, near
death, or after some shows, or by using some plants, etc.
Is it possible to know what it is like only to be one very specific
computation (thereby being eternally stuck there) or is there always
the possibility of waking up out of it like a bad dream?
Transhumanist experience can make people looping, like with any
computer. But real loop are not first person loop, and the first
person consciousness will still differentiate in arithmetic.
Now it seems you are invoking dualism in which consciousness is more
than the computation that you assumed it to be.
Brent
We can wake up, but that does not always mean that “where we wake up”
is nicer than the “bad dream”. You can wake up in a smaller jail … You
can wake up in a more hard reality, a bit like being born during a
war. We have partial control, only partial, locally. I would say.
Bruno
Jason
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>.
To view this discussion on the web visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/CA%2BBCJUhScFjonoU_8QBux%3DsQsVa11OLmb_SZeGhTMXPSR-%3D7Sw%40mail.gmail.com
<https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/CA%2BBCJUhScFjonoU_8QBux%3DsQsVa11OLmb_SZeGhTMXPSR-%3D7Sw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
an email to [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>.
To view this discussion on the web visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/67B2B51C-5309-4F42-ACF4-095A2DE85AF1%40ulb.ac.be
<https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/67B2B51C-5309-4F42-ACF4-095A2DE85AF1%40ulb.ac.be?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email
to [email protected].
To view this discussion on the web visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/b86271d8-3aed-4178-50e4-4aafe3db1767%40verizon.net.
