On 5/31/2019 1:33 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 30 May 2019, at 19:43, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:On 5/29/2019 11:47 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote:Only atheists insist to use “God” in the sense of the Christian (and only Aristotelian among them, where indeed materialism has been*the* dogma).Words are for communication and so their meaning is determined by their usage. "God" in the sense of Christians is also God in the sense of Muslims and Hindus. So it is the usage of at least 70% of humanity. To use it to mean something else is obfuscation.Then mathematics and science is obfuscation 100% of the time.In science we don’t do vocabulary discussion. If you want call god “Arthur” or “Josephine”, just do it.Then what you say does not make sense. Jews, Christians, and Muslims, have always been divided between the Aristotelian conception of God and Matter and the Platonist conception of God and matter, which are totally different. The Platonic conception is not well represented because Christians and Muslims have stolen theology from science to make it into an instrument of power, and have forced the Platonicians to exil, when they have not killed them.I think you want to please me by illustration how much atheists defend the Aristotelian Christian and Muslims materialist metaphysics.The God/Non-God debate looks exactly like a fake debate to make us forget that the original metaphysical question was about the fundamental existence of a primitive physical universe. The question took the form of what is more fundamental among mathematics and physics later.I am the atheist or agnostic here: I do not believe in your God Matter. I found no evidence. My whole work show how we can test mechanism/materialism, and the test shows that Nature confirms Platonism.I will change my mind if the physics which is in the mind of all universal machine differ from nature, but up to now, the evidences are that they fit. There is no evidence for materialism. None. It is speculating on some god to avoid science.You confirm, like many, that the atheists "are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chain which they have thrown off after hard struggle”, to quote Einstein.and it meant a supernatural human-like agent: Agdistis or Angdistis, Ah Puch, Ahura Mazda, Alberich, Allah, Amaterasu, An, Anansi, Anat, Andvari, Anshar, Anu, Aphrodite, Apollo, Apsu, Ares, Artemis, Asclepius, Athena, Athirat, Athtart, Atlas, Baal, Ba Xian, Bacchus, Balder, Bast, Bellona, Bergelmir, Bes, Bixia Yuanjin, Bragi, Brahma, Brent, Brigit,...Si-Wang-Mu, Sin, Sirona, Sol, Surya, Susanoh, Tawaret, Tefnut, Tezcatlipoca, Thanatos, Thor, Thoth, Tiamat, Tianhou, Tlaloc, Tonatiuh, Toyo-Uke-Bime, Tyche, Tyr, Utu, Uzume, Vediovis, Venus, Vesta, Vishnu, Volturnus, Vulcan, Xipe, Xi Wang-mu, Xochipilli, Xochiquetzal, Yam, Yarikh, YHWH, Ymir, Yu-huang, Yum Kimil or Zeus?I will ask you to use the word “Earth” for a Flat object on which the human stand up.An attempted analogy that does not work. Unlike "god", we can define Earth ostensively and so learn that it has different properties, like being spheroidal, without changing the definition.No. The early definition of Earth was a flat surface, and people believed this by ostentation.
Now you're just twisting words. Ostensive definition is by pointing. One can't believe a proposition by ostentation.
Similarly, even Christians have argued that God cannot be omniscient and omnipotent when they discovered that those notion were inconsistent. The correspondence between cantor and a bishop shows that christians can have a conception of God quite similar to the neoplatonician one, still in the 19th century. Only atheists defends the fairy tale religion, I guess to just mock it.I got problems with "atheist scientist” which are shocked by the vocabulary. For a very long period, the terms which shocked them was not God, but “consciousness” or even “mind”. That is because they confuse physics and metaphysics, and that is rather natural after 1500 years of metaphysical brainwashing.If you have just one evidence for a physically *primitive* reality, you can show it to us.
Can you show one evidence for anything being *primitive* reality? As you often say in other contexts, belief in a primitive reality is a matter of faith...except more cautious scientists call it an hypothesis, not a leap of faith.
The ostensive physical reality itself is no more an evidence that physics is the fundamental science that the sharable introspection would be an evidence that reality is psychological.
You use the word "fundamental" as though it were a sacred benediction. You don't know what is fundamental...or even if anything is fundamental. So you are merely inventing a pseuedo-religion of physicalism in order to criticize it and pretend you are above it.
Brent
You need to address metaphysics with the same level of rigour than you show in physics.BrunoBrent --You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/a8585c1b-8134-bc81-59f6-145160c6bebe%40verizon.net <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/a8585c1b-8134-bc81-59f6-145160c6bebe%40verizon.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.--You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/D56FA904-9E25-4BE2-B8E9-21F1B98FA23C%40ulb.ac.be <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/D56FA904-9E25-4BE2-B8E9-21F1B98FA23C%40ulb.ac.be?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
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