On 6/1/2019 12:30 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
No. The early definition of Earth was a flat surface, and people
believed this by ostentation.
Now you're just twisting words. Ostensive definition is by
pointing. One can't believe a proposition by ostentation.
Semantic play. If you are right, then we cannot believe that ostensive
definition makes sense.
Ostensive definitions are semantic. You point down where you're
standing and say "Earth"...that's how children learn words. And having
defined Earth as that which we stand on we have not believed anything
about it's overall shape.
Similarly, even Christians have argued that God cannot be omniscient
and omnipotent when they discovered that those notion were
inconsistent. The correspondence between cantor and a bishop shows
that christians can have a conception of God quite similar to the
neoplatonician one, still in the 19th century. Only atheists defends
the fairy tale religion, I guess to just mock it.
I got problems with "atheist scientist” which are shocked by the
vocabulary. For a very long period, the terms which shocked them was
not God, but “consciousness” or even “mind”. That is because they
confuse physics and metaphysics, and that is rather natural after
1500 years of metaphysical brainwashing.
If you have just one evidence for a physically *primitive* reality,
you can show it to us.
Can you show one evidence for anything being *primitive* reality?
Yes. But you might need to revise some of my papers. If all of S4Grz1,
Z1* and X1* depart from nature, that would be an evidence that the
physical reality is primitive.
As you often say in other contexts, belief in a primitive reality is
a matter of faith…
Belief in any reality different that the consciousness here and now
require faith. But being primitive or not is theorisable and testable
except more cautious scientists call it an hypothesis, not a leap of
faith.
There is a subtle difference between faith and hypothesis. It is
typically the difference between reasoning with the mechanist
hypothesis (and stating neutral or mute about the personal belief we
can have or not), and saying “yes” to the doctor in a concrete real
life situation. Faith is when some aspect of your first person
experience depends crucially on the truth of an hypothesis. It is the
difference between jumping from a cliff with an elastic, and just
assuming the elastic is good enough without jumping.
The ostensive physical reality itself is no more an evidence that
physics is the fundamental science that the sharable introspection
would be an evidence that reality is psychological.
You use the word "fundamental" as though it were a sacred
benediction. You don't know what is fundamental...or even if
anything is fundamental. So you are merely inventing a
pseuedo-religion of physicalism in order to criticize it and pretend
you are above it.
?
Fundamental, primitive … means “has to be assumed”.
Then I would say nothing is primitive. That's the point of my virtuous
circle.
We believe that he principle X is fundamental or primitive if we
believe that it cannot be recovered from other principle.
Physicalism assumes that some physical principle have to be assumed to
get a physical reality, like vitalism assumed that some aspect of life
cannot be recovered, even in principle, by another science like
chemistry or physics.
No. Physical things don't have to be assumed, they are defined
ostensively. It is only the theorizing that hypothesizes principles.
I guess you agree that vitalism is abandoned, and that most scientist
accept that biology can be reduced to quantum mechanics, even if only
in principle.
With mechanism, the same occurs for the physical reality. It is
explain, in principle, by very elementary arithmetic.
When interested in fundamental studies, that is part of the subject:
what are the simple principles that we have to assume to explain the
whole picture.
But you've then already assumed there is a hierarchy of explanation.
Brent
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