On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 8:15 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < [email protected]> wrote:
> > > On 4/28/2021 4:40 PM, Terren Suydam wrote: > > > > On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 7:25 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> >> >> On 4/28/2021 3:17 PM, Terren Suydam wrote: >> >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 5:51 PM John Clark <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 4:48 PM Terren Suydam <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>> *>>> testimony of experience constitutes facts about consciousness.* >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >> Sure I agree, provided you first accept that consciousness is the >>>>> inevitable byproduct of intelligence >>>>> >>>> >>>> *> I hope the irony is not lost on anyone that you're insisting on your >>>> theory of consciousness to make your case that theories of consciousness >>>> are a waste of time.* >>>> >>> >>> If you believe in Darwinian evolution and if you believe you are >>> conscious then given that evolution can't select for what it can't see >>> and natural selection can see intelligent behavior but it can't see >>> consciousness, can you give me an explanation of how evolution managed to >>> produce a conscious being such as yourself if intelligence is not the >>> inevitable byproduct of intelligence? >>> >> >> It's not an inevitable byproduct of intelligence if consciousness is an >> epiphenomenon. As you like to say, consciousness may just be how data feels >> as it's being processed. If so, that doesn't imply anything about >> intelligence per se, beyond the minimum intelligence required to process >> data at all... the simplest example being a thermostat. >> >> That said, do you agree that testimony of experience constitutes facts >> about consciousness? >> >> >> It wouldn't if it were just random, like plucking passages out of >> novels. We only take it as evidence of consciousness because there are >> consistent patterns of correlation with what each of us experiences. If >> every time you pointed to a flower you said "red", regardless of the >> flower's color, a child would learn that "red" meant a flower and his >> reporting when he saw red wouldn't be testimony to the experience of red. >> So the usefulness of reports already depends on physical patterns in the >> world. Something I've been telling Bruno...physics is necessary to >> consciousness. >> >> Brent >> > > I agree with everything you said there, but all you're saying is that > intersubjective reality must be consistent to make sense of other peoples' > utterances. OK, but if it weren't, we wouldn't be here talking about > anything. None of this would be possible. > > > Which is why it's a fool's errand to say we need to explain qualia. If we > can make an AI that responds to world the way we to, that's all there is to > saying it has the same qualia. > I don't think either of those claims follows. We need to explain suffering if we hope to make sense of how to treat AIs. If it were only about redness I'd agree. But creating entities whose existence is akin to being in hell is immoral. And we should know if we're doing that. To your second point, I think you're too quick to make an equivalence between an AI's responses and their subjective experience. You sound like John Clark - the only thing that matters is behavior. Terren > > Brent > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/bfe08930-bf9a-c88b-be8b-f621e5488c4f%40verizon.net > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/bfe08930-bf9a-c88b-be8b-f621e5488c4f%40verizon.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/CAMy3ZA-ueOoJFyodF_7cpE6Ke_CEt14T7q7wbE-5RghrTPKgcA%40mail.gmail.com.
