Fleet is right. Barry is capable of making decent posts but his recent efforts 
are no more than juvenile trolling. I don't know what he gets out of it. 

I read the Guardian a lot and they have a comments section. Sometimes 
moderators remove comments that don't follow Guardian guidelines. One of those 
guidelines is this: 

1. We welcome debate and dissent, but personal attacks (on authors, other users 
or any individual), persistent trolling and mindless abuse will not be 
tolerated. The key to maintaining the Guardian website as an inviting space is 
to focus on intelligent discussion of topics.

Barry is a perpetrator of exactly that "persistent trolling and mindless 
abuse." I would prefer it if we had more active moderators who would simply 
remove abusive posts. Most of them originate from Barry. As others have pointed 
out, he has chosen simply to dump all his anger and frustration on people in 
this group. No one else does this. Barry's recent attack on John Jr. (not sure 
I have that moniker exactly right) was particularly egregious, since that 
poster is a model of civilized discussion and respectful behavior, which he 
continued in spite of Barry's insulting and extremely rude comments. 
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <fleetwood_macncheese@...> wrote :

 I wasn't sure before, but you have clarified for me, that you are an enabler, 
of Barry's abusive behavior. There is nothing remotely helpful, or hinting, at 
cursing and insulting someone else, distorting their values and ideas.  

 You really need to step back, and do a reality check. Barry is an abusive, 
bitter, and negative individual. Simply because he has learned to manipulate 
people for a predictably outraged response, does not mean this is positive, 
educational, or socially appropriate behavior. Where did you grow up, anyway?
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <anartaxius@...> wrote :

 No, people become insulted. A person saying x might be interpreted by y as an 
insult, but interpreted by z as a helpful hint. Being insulted is a response. 
What to some might seem a pox on their cherished tradition others might see as 
a reasonable evaluation of idiotic beliefs, or even championing truth. You can 
swear at an anvil, and what does it do in response — nothing. You can berate 
someone in a language they do not speak, and while they might notice you are 
agitated, in not understanding the words, they will not responds as if it were 
an insult. So it is all in the interpretation. 

 I have never said what Barry says is wisdom. It is what Barry says, that is 
all. People respond in different ways. He clearly knows enough about certain 
aspects of human nature to elicit the responses he gets on FFL. If I lived 
where he lived and saw him every day, I probably would have a better idea what 
he is like, but I tend not to draw conclusions so readily based on what he 
writes. Wisdom does not come from others, if you want to be wise, you have to 
mine for it yourself.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <fleetwood_macncheese@...> wrote :

 "Barry is just testing memes to see what happens when they are activated."
 

 Wrong, Taxius. Barry is insulting people. Barry is cursing people's beliefs. 
Barry is denigrating people, distorting who they are, and treating them with 
incredible disrespect. We are not his guinea pigs. He, rather, has become quite 
a specimen of craziness and abuse, under the scrutiny, of those he 
inadvertently attracts, through his antisocial behavior. You are a fool for 
taking his emotionally unbalanced state, for some sort of wisdom. Grow up, and 
smell the reality.
 

 

 

"The TMO memes specify that we are in a state of ignorance, not knowing the 
nature of reality. But were we actually in the state of ignorance, we would not 
have the capability to correctly evaluate what we were told because we would be 
using delusional thinking to evaluate ideas such as transcendence, states of 
consciousness and so forth, so our following this system of thought about 
reality would essentially be an act of insanity, that is, mental illness." 
 

 Yep, absolutely correct. That is why we practice TM, to clear past 
impressions, so that we can one day see reality, as it is, not as we think it 
should be. Otherwise, we would remain impaired, as you say - in a state of 
ignorance. There is no way to follow the knowledge associated with TM, without 
doing TM. It makes little sense, like reading automobile service manuals, 
without owning or driving a car.
 

 

 I do not think you understood what I said here. What I said here was in a 
state of ignorance, you are incapable of knowing whether the TM program, in 
total, is a scam or not, based on its own philosophy, so saying that it clears 
past impressions and so forth, is a complete unknown, for in a state of 
delusion, you cannot come to a correct evaluation of whether the program has 
any valid reason for being followed. You cannot use the philosophy of the 
program to determine if what it says is true, that is circular reasoning. You 
cannot even evaluate the practices, at least initially. Lots of people have 
been practising TM for 50 years and still seem to be in the dark as to what it 
is all about. So the fact you found value might just be a random quirk. I 
myself found value in the program, but I also am aware of many limitations it 
has, and it has been useful for some, a stepping stone to other things for 
some, just so-so for others, and a nightmare for a few.

 

 There is nothing about enlightenment that is not experienced before starting a 
spiritual path. If enlightenment seems different from the way you were before 
engaging spirituality, then the process is not complete. Enlightenment does not 
add anything to life, it removes a misunderstanding about what has always been 
happening, what has been the case. During the unpacking of misconceptions, 
experiences may seem quite unlike what one had previously known. 
 

 Witnessing 24/7 is an example of this. This is a dualistic conception of 
experience that arises because the mind is becoming familiar with the nature 
awareness. Unchanging awareness has been there from day one, but just 
unfamiliar because one did not know how to look at the situation. Once one 
knows how to appreciate the situation, you know it was always there, you just 
trained the mind to notice it better. So awareness 24/7 is not a special state. 
I have awareness this way, what is the big deal? It is not the cause of 
anything other than it enables you to experience, which is what you have always 
done. Consciousness has been present all one's life. You do not get any more, 
you just get to notice how it plays out better if you train the mind to 
appreciate, which is what meditation does. All an effective spiritual practice 
does is remove some clutter from the ol' mind. Most such practices seem to do 
the reverse, adding additional clutter to the mind. It should be a relief to 
remove a misunderstanding. Congratulating oneself for having discovered that 
one was an idiot is not cause for celebration.
 

 After all if one was an idiot in the past, perhaps one is still misconstruing 
the state one is in now.
 

 

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <anartaxius@...> wrote :

 Logical arguments about ultimates always contain a flaw. You can reverse the 
form of the argument to support atheism and if you do not see the flaw, it will 
seem equally valid, that is, that atheism is true. Now there are some atheists 
who definitely believe there is no god and they can be as fanatical as a 
fundamentalist religionist. Probably they would have no sense of humour about 
their condition. But a real atheist simply lacks a particular kind of belief 
because that belief seems neither reasonable or likely. They basically just do 
not care. Barry is just testing memes to see what happens when they are 
activated. We all have memes which are basically little snippets of mental 
routines our minds use. We trade them with each other, but for the most part 
these mental stances are just our opinions about the world around us and we 
tend to be be rather uncritical as to how well they really represent what is 
real, while at the same time taking them as reality itself. 

 Take the TMO memes. On FFL, meditators and former meditators all at one time 
believed certain things about experience were at least possible, for example, 
that if you practice TM, which is not a religion, you will find God. The TMO 
memes specify that we are in a state of ignorance, not knowing the nature of 
reality. But were we actually in the state of ignorance, we would not have the 
capability to correctly evaluate what we were told because we would be using 
delusional thinking to evaluate ideas such as transcendence, states of 
consciousness and so forth, so our following this system of thought about 
reality would essentially be an act of insanity, that is, mental illness. The 
system defines us as in some way incapacitated in knowing what is real, and 
then expects us to just jump in, and accept what the system says is real. 
 

 A discussion of the Kalam argument:
 

 Cosmological Kalamity 
http://infidels.org/library/modern/dan_barker/kalamity.html 
 
 Cosmological Kalamity 
http://infidels.org/library/modern/dan_barker/kalamity.html Home » Library » 
Modern » Dan Barker »   Cosmological Kalamity Dan Barker "Daddy, if God made 
everything, who made God?" my daughter Kristi asked me, when she was five years 
old.


 
 View on infidels.org 
http://infidels.org/library/modern/dan_barker/kalamity.html
 Preview by Yahoo 
 

  

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, <jr_esq@...> wrote :

 Barry, 

 Have you ever thought that atheism is also a belief-- and an unreasonable one 
at that?  The Kalam Cosmological Argument should dispel any of your doubts.
 








 
  












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