--- In [email protected], Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I just realized that this whole discussion of a > "false" guru is nonsense.
For you I presume. An analysis of its applicability for your life. Or are you making a universal truth claim? > Of what purpose are all > these criteria? Are these to be used to select a guru? > No, not as they are written. I differ. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/82762 I think the list is common sense -- would you choose a teacher that doesn't walk his or her talk, that is paranoid? Its not a big stretch. Others points are more of a think piece: one who dwells on opulence? Not necesarily a bad thing, but may imply a different road, a different trip, a different bus than a more modest teacher. As do things like encouraging or not encouraging debate and free-inquiry. But the biggest value of the list, IMO, is that it opens seekers awareness to the possibility of such qualities being uncovered down the road. At first sight, most teachers are grand and wonderful. No sense of anything questionable, odd or corrupt. The question doesn't enter the mind. But I think it IS a good thing to consider, sort of like pre-marriage counselling, "here is a list of things that MAY pop up over the years. You should be open-eyed about that, and consider some initial strategies should such be found. Otherwise, if histroy is any guide, you may be stuck in denial for years, paralyzed, unable to act, until the denial begins to mature to rationality, enablng action. --------- > They are simply an > attempt by a mind to position itself in relationship > to a narrative it likes regarding gurus. That may be your take. For you. Which seems pretty limited and immature to me. But if it works for you, carry on. Rage on. > They HAHAHA. You clearly mean "I". > have an > ideal guru in mind and compare and judge every flesh > and blood guru to this one. > It's really nonsense and > no practical function. Just mind fluff (very sticky > indeed!). You have these large battles raging isnide don't you dr pete. A litteral internal Mahabharatta. > The only "The only" ??? So you are making universal truth claims? You are claiming that there is only one legitimate way for EVERYONE to view this list? Oh my!! This is extreme, even unbalanced. > way to see if a guru is of value is > to involve yourself in their teaching for an honest > amount of time. If it works for you, great, if it > doesn't, move on. So let see. Per your advice I will/would spend a 1-5 years each with Adi-Da, Rajneesh, Maharaji, Walter Belim, Sai Baba, Andy Rymer, Jim Jones, the Arrayan Nation, the Cripes, the current Republican party, the asteriod black tennis shoe folks, etc. No pre-screening is either necessary or worthwhile per your view. The ONLY way to evaluate these groups is to jump in head first. This is satire isn't it Dr. Peter? I mean you can't possibly be serious, are you? > Buddha didn't disparage the teachers > he studied with and found inadequate to his > enlightenment. You know this as a fact? You are a buddhist scholar? Ok. Name 10 teachers Buddha studied with. If these don't role off the tongue, how would you possibly know if Buddha disparraged them? > He just moved on. These teachers had a > value for other people, not for him. Thats an excellent point. Using some preliminary screening does not say the "rejected teacher" have no value for anyone. It just means that they "probably" do not for the screener. Like SBS. He had criteria. He rejected many. And moved on. Not disparaging. Why in heavens name does having a criteria imply or necessitate disparaging? Your whole argument is based on a false premise: that using some criteria for selecting a teacher implies or necessitates dissing teachers not choosen. Its a huge strawman argument logical fallacy that you are entrapped in Dr. Pete. Wake up. > MMY has had great > value for many people. Many people still gain value > from him. Many have moved on. It is what it is. > To > lock yourself into a conceptual model of a "perfect" > guru is just silliness. Again, good advice -- though this has nothing to do with a pre-screening criteria list of qualities for a guru, It ONLY has to do with your false strawman fallacy -- which exists only in your mind. Like wishing for the "perfect" > mate or mother or father. A sign of psychological > immaturity, isn't it? I do think there is tremendous psychological immaturity here. But it has nothing to do with a pre-screening criteria list. It has to do with your claims for universal truths aplicable for everyone, and your construction of a huge strawman logical fallacy. > --- authfriend <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > --- In [email protected], Vaj > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > <snip> > > > For #4, clearly M. gives an intro path and then > > talks on big "E" > > > but never gives the full path, esp. regarding the > > finer techniques > > > for realization, which are simply missing. > > > > Unless the techniques he teaches are in themselves a > > full path, of course. > > > > <snip> > > > #6 does not really apply in the sense conveyed but > > should be > > > adjusted to the situation at hand. Put it this > > way, M. has > > > an "entourage". Who are the entourage and how does > > one get to be in > > > the group of sees him? Who are those who get > > satsang and is this a > > > traditional satsang or a westernized version? > > > > > > #7 In this case perhaps translated 'does the guru > > give satsang in > > > a way which is foreign to the culture'. If one > > considers satsang > > > as free or by donation in traditional Indian > > culture are those who > > > are granted satsang with M. made to pay (either > > with money or > > > their complete lives)? In other words, has he > > distorted the manner > > > in which students come to see and "hang" with > > their teacher? > > > Clearly this is "yes" as most people never get to > > ever meet M. in > > > person, let alone talk to him. Those who do, pay a > > price. > > > > Clearly it would be impossible for most TMers to > > meet > > and hang with MMY in the manner that's traditional > > in > > Indian culture. > > > > Part of the problem with evaluating MMY according to > > the > > standard criteria is that he is not a standard guru > > (isn't a guru at all, for that matter, except in the > > most > > generic sense of the term). For many of the > > criteria, > > it's apples and oranges. > > > > > #8 The recent description in a book with excepts > > posted here gives > > > the following description: > > > > > > "One late night, after the guests had gone and our > > work was > > > finished, we relaxed with Maharishi in his > > spacious and silky suite > > > inside the old monastery." and the place itself is > > described as an > > > "impenetriable fortress". > > > > > > Not your typical monks digs... > > > > The description ain't all that recent. From what > > I've read, > > he doesn't live in the monastery building any > > longer; he has > > his own Stapathyavedically correct quarters that > > were built > > for him. But even a "spacious and silky suite" > > doesn't really > > amount to "opulence," nor does "impenetrability." > > > > No, not your typical monk's digs, but then how many > > typical monks run global corporations, and could > > they > > even do so in typical monk's digs? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > --------------------~--> > > Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? > > Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. > > > http://us.click.yahoo.com/hemMeA/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > > > > > > To subscribe, send a message to: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Or go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ > > and click 'Join This Group!' > > Yahoo! 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