--- In [email protected], "curtisdeltablues"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
[Quoting Schroedinger:]
> Let us see whether we cannot draw the correct, noncontradictory
> > conclusion from the following two premises:
> >
> > (i) My body functions as a pure mechanism according to the Laws
> > of Nature [determinism].
> >
> > (ii) Yet I know, by incontrovertible direct experience, that I
> > am directing its motions, of which I foresee the effects, that
> > may be fateful and all-important, in which case I feel and take
> > full responsibility for them [free will].
> >
> > The only possible inference from these two facts is, I think,
> > that I--I in the widest meaning of the word, that is to say,
> > every conscious mind that has ever said "I"--am the person, if
> > any, who controls the "motion of the atoms" according to the Laws
> > of Nature.
>
>
> I think I can put my finger on where I disagree with him. it is
> where he speaks on behalf of "every conscious mind that has ever
> said 'I'" and then jumps to controlling the motion of atoms. He
> should have said, "controls the motions of our own bodies". The
> jump he is making is poetic but wrong. Just because we control our
> own bodies does not give us the right to claim controlling atoms.
> The atomic level is working on its own without the participation of
> the consciousness that emerges from the functioning of our brains
> which is driven by laws of nature at a completely different level.
>
> Am I missing something?
I'm not sure. Let me take it point by point:
First of all, he's saying that you, Curtis, are not
controlling your own body, as far as science is
concerned. Rather, it's the gunas, in TM-speak,
that are doing it. That you, Curtis, think *you*
are doing it is an illusion. "You" are, however,
controlling the gunas from the transcendental
perspective ("Be without the three gunas...")--not
you the localized body and mind of Curtis, but You
the universal, unbounded, nonlocal Self of everyone.
Second, he's not saying we (our small selves)
have the sense of controlling only our bodies but
of controlling our minds as well; but the "statistico-
deterministic" laws as observed by science say
that's also an illusion.
But I'm not sure either of these affect your
point.
What you're saying, if I understand you, is that
the control of our thoughts is an emergent property
that doesn't follow the same laws as those that
control "atoms" (actually the elementary particles
that compose the atoms).
This claim, however, is just about as grand, and
as unsupported by science, as his. I don't think
your problem with what he says is that he's making
too big a leap; I think it's that you disagree with
the premise he's assuming as the very basis for his
argument. He's saying the control of thought *does*
follow the same laws as those that "control the atoms."
You're saying control of thought is independent of
the laws that "control the atoms."
That's a perfectly respectable philosophical
position, but it's also essentially a "mystical"
one in that science cannot observe or test it, any
more than it can observe or test his.
At least, if I'm understanding you correctly...
> Here is what I consider better poetry in this genre.
>
> Kabir through Bly through my memory:
>
> Inside this clay jug there are canyons and pine mountains,
> and the maker of canyons and pine mountains.
> All seven oceans are inside, and hundreds of millions of stars.
> The acid that tests gold is there, and the one who judges jewels.,
> And the music from the strings no one touches,
> and the source of all water.
> If you want the truth I will tell you the truth,
> friend listen:
> The God whom I love is inside.
>
> I think if we are going to make stuff up about reality this is the
> bar to clear!
It sure is magnificent poetry! It would be a very
high bar to clear in *any* context.
(But if I had my druthers, I'd like to have *both*
Kabir and Schroedinger...)
Good stuff, Curtis. Intellectualizing Can Be Fun!
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Yahoo! Groups gets a make over. See the new email design.
http://us.click.yahoo.com/XISQkA/lOaOAA/yQLSAA/UlWolB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
To subscribe, send a message to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Or go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/
and click 'Join This Group!'
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
