So what is your point?

- that we need a whole lot more people working on this. We already know, 
either people will volunteer or they won't.
- that you don't know how to help. You said you can see problems. Tell us 
you are going to fix those problems. Then do it.
- that we need: coders, project coordinator, documenters, testers, 
examples etc.
- we need deadlines, timetables, that only works when the other things are 
in order
- upto date progress on everything. I would estimate that would take 60% 
of the time under the current circumstances, do you want things to take 
2.5 times longer.

The only conclusion I can make is that I made the website look too good 
(or inappropriate). People seem to think that we have the resources of 
projects with 20-500 times the people.
Since we cannot manage the resources then we should manage user 
expectation better.

Here is what you will do over the next week:
go to - http://xml.apache.org/fop/todo.html
in cvs - docs/xml-docs/fop/todo.xml
and update it to reflect the current priorities
work out what other people will do
what people need
how and in what order
you can use the archives and the mailing list (if you want me to answer 
questions I need to see that you are making a net positive contribution)



On 2002.02.06 19:36 Matthew L. Avizinis wrote:
> OK, so how can I help?
> I am not what could be called by most standards a "professionally
> competent"
> Java programmer yet.  However, I agree that documentation is lacking -- I
> noticed that many, or at least some, of the Help documents in the
> distribution have not been updated since 1999 (or if they have been,
> -last
> edited- date and by whom have not been).
> I am attempting to use FOP for my company's publishing work flow - source
> content to pdf, html, and mySQL database text blobs.  It's a great
> product,
> considering that XEP costs >=$5,000, but frustrating in that Help is not
> always (or has ever been?) up to date with the current release.
> I might be able to squeeze in an hour or two a week for something deemed
> useful by someone in charge.
> Btw, who's in charge?  It doesn't seem clear to me.
> 
> And reluctantly, but while I'm at it, what the hey (certainly Keiron's
> always very patient comments didn't provoke the following), (everyone is
> entitled to a little ranting now and then, yes?):
> And why does it seem that those folks working on this project seem so
> against stating what their goals for when they want to complete certain
> stages of development, i.e. "it'll be done when it's done" is frankly not
> what I'd expect to here from a professional, even if they are only
> programming on their free time.  If you expect "users" to use the
> product,
> not just hobbyist's or programming guru's, then you've got to be more
> forthcoming with what the development plan is.  At least then, if you
> don't
> meet it, you can identify why and then set a new, more realistic goal.
> Finally, one thing FOP should have is an upto date page identifying all
> the
> elements, attributes, and attribute values that are supported.  For
> instance, how long is keep-with-next going to remain "(broken)" on the
> website, when it clearly is implemented at least partially with tables?
> If
> you need someone to do it, just tell me how and I'll get about it.
> As to feature requests -- not everyone is a programmer, in fact most
> people
> are "users", so not everyone can "volunteer" to implement something.
> Maybe
> it's not the best example, but when I use MSWord and it has a defect, I
> don't volunteer to fix it; I expect MS to do it.  I just want to use the
> product (commercial or not) to make my other development efforts easier.
> On
> the other hand, I know the active developers have much to do.  So rather,
> than brush people off with "do I here you volunteering", create a public
> "wish list" or to-do list or whatever you want to call it.
> I know the type of comments this will probably generate around here about
> this being Open Source, and there being too few developers.  Sure, I
> understand all that.  But a plain 'ol user has certain performance
> expectations.  I doubt that mySQL would enjoy the popularity it does
> today,
> if developers didn't meet user expectations (granted, there are far more
> people working on it, but I hope you get my point).
> Well, I've had my sayso, and I feel better.  Now I can calm down again.
> :-)

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