> Ach! > > > > I glad we are talking about this. It is the kind of issue that we, in > particular, ought to think up and speak out about. My own impulse > would be to entertain the possibility of a LANL-SF, but negotiate some > sort of arrangement, say, perhaps, that no classified work could be > done in here. > Nick -
Guerin brought up the idea of trying to engage (some from?) this group, or the larger Complexity Community with the folks that a *small* group of us met in Stockholm last month under the thoughtful shepherding of Merle and Lars (Larsson). He specifically mentioned the idea of Bohm Dialogue, after the example/prescription of the late David Bohm who introduced the idea of a particular style of Dialogue which is neither Debate nor Discussion in the normal colloquial sense. There is a group with a website: BohmDialogue.org which tries to represent his ideas and this style. I encountered his ideas first in his book "Wholeness and the Implicate Order" as "the Rheomode" which roughly describes his conception of a language which is "verb centric" which subsumes the Subject and Object in importance to the Action. The website above is not well developed but seems to represent the idea and promote it's broad application. Bohm's lecture in 1992 to a "Transpersonal Conference" captures a lot of important ideas in the relevance and role of "Science" in the larger project of "Being Human". Much of Bohm's perspective in this area seems to derive from his long association with philospher/spiritual-leader Jiddu Krishnamurti. Many of Krishnamurti's fans (and by extension Bohm's) are perhaps a bit "woo" for this crowd and I understand/share that. On the other hand, the very discussion at hand suggests that there is a crisis in the some of our seperations between Science and Morality, etc. I mentioned, after Guerin's post, your own pursuit of a more creative/building/collaborative mode of (online) conversation than the existing modes at the time when you tried to implement "noodling" on top of the Wikimedia platform we had at SFx at the time. Much of our current (all?) discussion on this list takes the form of debate... each one of us trying to convince the others of something in particular. It gets better (for me) when the discussion takes more of the texture of a Discussion, even though THAT is often really the superposition of a suite of Rants and Raves. I'm not sure I *know* what a true Dialogue (Bohm Style) would really be like, though I do think I've experienced it often within the realm of Science/Technology. The way Merle and Lars' team in Stockholm shepherded us in December in Stockholm began to approach that. I understand that our own Benny Lichnter (active in SFx, now living in Berkeley/Oakland) may be working with/using this style of commun(icat)ion. - Steve PS. Specific in response to your question about institutions and blunt-force-trauma methods for controlling/managing/mitigating them... I do find that large institutions are risky propositions, and not just at the scale Elizabeth Warren is going after or Big Gov or Big Academe or ... but I'm equally suspicious of "simple solutions" to such... this kind of problem (in scale, quality, importance) might require "Dialog" to begin to work into/through. > > > > > But now I have heard from several voices that I respect deeply, each > speaking from very different kinds of experience, and all appearing to > agree that even in the absence of War Heads, hosting a national > laboratory would not benefit Santa Fe. But what are the > alternatives? In other words, are the ills you identify inherent to > all human institutions, or really only inherent to government ones. > Would it be better if CMU put a campus here? I have heard many of you > express the same doubts about universities. Would it be better if > Google or Amazon put a campus here? Why? Why are large for-profit > institutions more to be trusted than government and academic ones? At > least with government institutions there is the possibility of > regulating them by popular will. Amazon, not so much. Is your > position that EVERY institution should be so small we can drown it in > a bathtub? So, set the threshold for anti trust action VERY low. How > bout this: every corporation with more than a billion dollars in > assets must place 5 percent of its annual income in a trust fund to > encourage competing start ups. Well, OK, split the College of Santa > Fe campus up. Give it to ten different real estate firms with > instructions that they must work independently. Treat it as a > hazard, rather than an opportunity. > > > > I heard a similar proposal for a solution to the truth problem on the > internet. Every retweet over ten-thousand contributes funds a > conterarian tweet on the same stream. In fact, how about a retweet > limit on all messages. No message can be retweeted more than > ten-thousand times. > > > > Nick > > Nicholas Thompson > > Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology > > Clark University > > thompnicks...@gmail.com <mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> > > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ > > > > > > *From:* Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Steven A Smith > *Sent:* Tuesday, January 14, 2020 11:48 AM > *To:* friam@redfish.com > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: NO LANL IN SANTA FE! Wednesday, 12; 00 > outside SF City Hall; bring friends > > > > Merle, et al - > > Though I reject most of the extreme arguments I hear on both sides of > this issue, my instinct is that it would be better if Santa Fe did NOT > invite LANL/NNSA into the development of this critical/central/prime > location in the heart of *greater* Santa Fe. > > I've been living in a variant of this high-dimensional, nonlinear, > sometimes subtle and nuanced question all of my (adult) life. I came > to LANL at 24 as a technophilic peacenik who believed MAD made sense > (1980) and was happy to ensure that WE had the BIG STICK. I raised > two children In Los Alamos and finally left in 2008 (27 years later) > after Bechtel took over, remaining in the region and in high-tech > work. Along the way I was confronted with *many* changes in the > international political, cultural and scientific landscape. The end > of the Cold War and nuclear testing, a nuclear arms-race between > India/Pakistan, two Gulf Wars, a deep and abiding awareness of the > reality and threat of Climate Change (and other parallel Endogenous > Existential Threats). > > I went through a few personal transformations as well, including > shepherding my two daughters into maturity along the way. My opinions > have become much stronger, broader and more nuanced over the years and > I am thankful to have had the perspective offered through the rich > gradients formed by our "tri-cultural heritage". LANL is much > more/less than a traditional "Anglo" company town and the work that > goes on there is much more/less than virtually any other facility. > Adding Pu Pit production has expanded that yet more, while the > unfathomably deep explorations into what may very well represent an > array of other technological *existential threats*. Possibly equally > important sociopolitically, is the role of Santa Fe (and San Juan > Pueblo before it) as a locus of European Conquest, including the > Pueblo Revolt (I can see Black Mesa from my window as I type). > > I agree with most of Ed's assertions about the variability of quality > of the work at LANL, and certainly question the average "value > received" with such outrageous overheads and oft isolated efforts. I > also agree with his summary of the net socioeconomic impact on the > region/state. While I was (am via legacy savings and local available > services) a beneficiary of the very large amount of money pumped into > the region, I see the deleterious effects of it. > > With my renewed interest and awareness in the "Endogenous Existential > Threats" of our time, I am more sensitive to the callousness of many > of the people and programs at LANL toward the local and global > environment. The bulk of the memoir Frank urged me to write (to save > the list from my TMI/TL;DR posts?) would be armatured around this > braid of interesting (in every sense of the word) paradoxes and > contradictions. > > I think New Mexico's legacy around Science and Technology is real and > meaningful, but has also been highly distorted by the influence of > government (and specifically Defense-related) money. > > Carry On, > > - Steve > > On 1/13/20 2:41 PM, Merle Lefkoff wrote: > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: *Leslie Lakind* <leftielak...@gmail.com > <mailto:leftielak...@gmail.com>> > Date: Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 2:23 PM > Subject: NO LANL IN SANTA FE! Wednesday, 12;00 outside SF City > Hall; bring friends > To: > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: *Greg Mello* <gme...@lasg.org <mailto:gme...@lasg.org>> > > > > Permalink <http://www.lasg.org/letters/2020/nm_12Jan2020.html> for > this letter. */Please forward!/*//Other Letters > <http://www.lasg.org/letters/letters.html> > Home page <http://lasg.org/index.htm>; Press Releases > <http://www.lasg.org/press/PressReleases.html>; Bulletins > <http://www.lasg.org/ActionAlerts/action.htm>; > To subscribe to our Friends listserve (formerly by invitation > only) send a blank email here. > <mailto:lasg_friends-subscr...@lists.riseup.net> To unsubscribe > send a blank email here. > <mailto:lasg_friends-unsubscr...@lists.riseup.net> > To subscribe to our Main listserve (less content, less frequent) > send a blank email here. <mailto:lasg-subscr...@lists.riseup.net> > To unsubscribe send a blank email here. > <mailto:lasg-unsubscr...@lists.riseup.net> > Our blog (makeover coming!): *Remember your Humanity > <http://lasg.org/wordpress/>. *Twitter: @TrishABQ > <https://twitter.com/#%21/TrishABQ>. > Contribute. <http://www.lasg.org/contribute.htm> Volunteer. > Contact us (Greg and Trish in our main office > <http://www.lasg.org/contact.htm>, Lydia Clark in our Santa Fe > office <mailto:clark4...@msn.com>) > > *This letter: Press conference outside Santa Fe City Hall at noon > on Wednesday Jan. 15 *(map > <https://goo.gl/maps/ycyfawsEqEYzu3wG9>) -- please come, and > please recruit others** > > *Dear New Mexico friends – * > > As we have explained in previous letters > <http://www.lasg.org/letters/letters.html>, Wednesday is the day > on which the City will announce the finalists for "Master > Developer" of the former College of Santa Fe site (and possibly > surrounding properties as well, a 64- to ~100-acre project). The > National Nuclear Security Administration (NNSA) has applied for > this role. NNSA and/or Los Alamos National Laboratory (LANL) are > present in some (not all) other proposals, as tenant(s). > > The situation is opaque, fluid, and developing. So far, Mayor > Webber has disdainfully rebuffed our requests to meet or discuss > the momentous social, cultural, and economic development impacts > of placing a nuclear weapons campus in Santa Fe. (Don't be > deceived -- that is exactly what LANL is and what this would be.) > > People power may be the only force stronger than LANL's money and > corruption. We really need you to help us expand our numbers. > > If you live /anywhere/ nearby please come to this joint press > conference, and please ask as many friends to come as possible. > Sheer attendance matters. A strong showing Wednesday will save > countless hours of work later, and will give wings to efforts to > push back on LANL's entirely unjustified expansion. There are many > powerful people in Washington who know LANL specializes in > taxpayer ripoffs. Some of them need to see some spine from us out > here to take to their bosses. > > New Mexico is being selected to be a nuclear weapons support and > sacrifice area. That now includes the Santa Fe metro area. > > We may not know know the outcome of this first Midtown Campus > decision by noon Wednesday but regardless of that we must seize > the day. > > While it seems absurd that NNSA could be a possible "master > developer," we can't be sure that Mayor Webber and the people > around him wouldn't want that -- or want, say, a training facility > for plutonium workers. We just don't know. > > This event will also give us a chance for us to network with each > other and with representatives of any other groups present, as > well as speak to any City officials willing to do so. > > *Getting people to come on Wednesday is the sole action item we > are recommending right now. It is very, very important! * > > Thank you! > > Greg, Trish, Lydia, Ernie, Michelle, and the rest of the Study Group > > -- > > Greg Mello > Los Alamos Study Group <http://www.lasg.org/> > 2901 Summit Place NE > Albuquerque, NM 87106 > 505-265-1200 office > 505-577-8563 cell > > To subscribe to our Friends listserve send a blank email here. > <mailto:lasg_friends-subscr...@lists.riseup.net> To unsubscribe > send a blank email here. > <mailto:lasg_friends-unsubscr...@lists.riseup.net> > > To subscribe to our Main listserve (less frequent) send a blank > email here. <mailto:lasg-subscr...@lists.riseup.net> To > unsubscribe send a blank email here. > <mailto:lasg-unsubscr...@lists.riseup.net> > > Our blog: *Remember your Humanity <http://lasg.org/wordpress/>. > *Twitter: @TrishABQ <https://twitter.com/#%21/TrishABQ>. We have > shut down our Facebook page. > > --- > To unsubscribe: <mailto:lasg_friends-unsubscr...@lists.riseup.net > <mailto:lasg_friends-unsubscr...@lists.riseup.net>> > List help: <https://riseup.net/lists> > > > > > -- > > */America is waking up, as Germany once did, to the awareness that /* > > */1/3 of your people would kill another 1/3, while 1/3 watches. /* > > /Werner Herzog/ > > > > > > > > > -- > > Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D. > President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy > emergentdiplomacy.org <http://emergentdiplomacy.org> > > Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA > > merlelefk...@gmail.com <mailto:merlelef...@gmail.com> > mobile: (303) 859-5609 > skype: merle.lelfkoff2 > > twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff > > > > ============================================================ > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
