Hi Che,

Well, I'm not saying/arguing that Python can't write a game as good as
MOTA, but wanted to point out that there are some features you'll miss
by using something like Python with PyGame.For instance, if you wanted
to support force feedback devices PyGame currently doesn't have force
feedback support. This may or may not be adeal braker for a game
developer, but is something a new developer might want to be aware of.

Other issues is advanced audio. Since PyGame uses SDL Mixer it has
very very generic 3d audio support. For most games such as SoundRTS
this is a non-issue.There are alternatives though such as PySonic, a
wrapper for FMOD Ex,  and PyOpenAL, a Python wrapper for OpenAL. Both
have 3d audio support, but I'm not sure of the status of these Python
wrappers.  Thereis PySFML which wraps SFML and I know it is being
maintained as v1.6 was released not long ago. So if you take in
account these alternative game APIs a game like Shades of Doom is
certainly possible with a few exceptions such as no force feedback
support.

The other issue I wanted to stress  , which isn't as big an issue now
as it use to be, is native code verses runtime code. There is no doubt
that correctly native written code in C++ or assembly will run faster
than any runtime language. However, I'm fully aware that not everyone
is willing to learn something like C++. That's where the runtime
languages like Python, Java, and .Net comes in handy as they are
high-level languages meant to simplify programming for amateurs and
professionals alike.

I still believe if you have the skills that programming in pure C/C++
is the best option. However, if you can't or don't want to .Net, Java,
and other runtime languages are getting close to native speeds by
optomising the frameworks, and it helps that more and more systems
with 3 GHZ processors are more common. The newer duel core systems
have no problem executing runtime languages like Python, Java, or .Net
because of improved CPU power. So you are definitely right that the
points I raised about performance is quickly becoming less an issue
than it use to be. I guess it all depends on what kinds of platforms
you plan to support.

So before I go I'd like to point out that I'm certainly not unbiast
when it comes to programming languages. Like religeon and politics all
of us have discovered languages that just works for us, languages we
like, and it is part experience and part personal preference that that
goes into what languages I recommend/support. I've always felt more at
home with C-Style languages like C++, Java, Perl, C#.Net, etc so
naturally its what I usually recommend. I've never taken to the
languages like Python, and I frankly don't like them for a number of
reasons. Both technical and personal. Just thought I should clarify
where I stand.

Cheers!




On 4/23/11, Che <blindadrenal...@gmail.com> wrote:
>   As a developer that looked into many programming options before making my
> choice, I feel the need to respond to this thread in order to possibly
> prevent other potential programmers from being angled away from python based
> on thomases post.
>   I rarely post to list here, but I do check in from time to time, so please
> don't take my lack of posts as any indication that I don't stay in tune with
> the community I partially serve.
>   I realize thomas is seen as a voice of authority here on list, but I think
> on this subject, he is very very wrong.
>   Thomas has put down other programming languages before as well, such as VB
> 6 for being outdated, etc.
>   but I say let the work stand for itself. look at what jim kitchen  and
> David Greenwood have done with vb 6, regarding python, look at sound RTS, or
> qwittter,  on and on.
>   To say python is only for amateur programmers is ridiculous to be sure.
> Also, I have to question thomases authority on this subject, as he has yet
> to release a game for profit, so up to this point, he is by definition an
> amateur programmer himself.
>   I realize MOTA will be sold for a profit, and Thomas has collected money
> for pre sales, but to this point, no final product has ben released for
> commercial sale, thus seriously diluting his point  about professional
> development with python in my opinion, especially considering the vast
> number of projects out there that have been released for a profit using
> python.
>   This post isn't to flame on Thomas, he has worked hard on his games, most
> very especially MOTA, but for him to crap on python on this list given the
> attention his posts receive is irresponsible  and not well thought out in my
> opinion.
>   From what I've seen and tested, I don't think python would have any
> trouble running MOTA, or most any other audio game out there, given current
> system specs.
>   And I am not talking out of my rear end here either. I've done one of the
> most complex audio games out there with Rail Racer, I know what I speak of.
>   But to me, the most important things involved in creating a good audio
> game, or any other program for that matter is being an inventive, efficient
> and dedicated developer.
>   No matter what language you use, if your idea sucks, it won't matter.
>   If your skills suck, it won't matter.
>   If your dedication sucks, it won't matter.
>   The skills learned by teaching yourself a language such as python will
> carry over to any other language, picking up the syntax is the easy part,
> learning how to efficiently make code do what you want, that’s the magic,
> and learning to think that way will be greatly advanced by using python or
> any other language for that matter.
>   I want to reiterate, this post isn't here to flame anyone else, but I know
> a lot of you guys on list here follow thomas' posts closely, and as a fellow
> quote unquote professional developer, I just think he is dead wrong about
> the downside of python, and I would hate to see someone not use python
> because they have heard it can't do what they want.
>   check the programming options out yourself, and make a balanced opinion
> for what works for you, your idea and implementation will be the reason your
> game succeeds or fails, not the language you choose.
> Lord knows, we need as many creative game developers out there as we can get
> for the audio game community, and no matter what you use to create it, if
> its fun and engaging, I for one will buy it, I don't care if you program it
> with punch cards, grin.
>   Thanks for listening,
>   Che
> Developer,-  Blind Adrenaline Simulations
>
>
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