Hello and thank you for kind reply,

On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 12:48 AM, LightningIsMyName
<lightningismyn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello,
> I have replied to your bug comment before seeing this email - sorry :P

No problem, already replied :-)

> I suggested a solution to your use case there in my comment (please
> read it first), and I'll add some more detail here:

As I have written in the bug report:

1. There is no need to remove this functionality (or any other) - the
simplest solution is to connect visibility of that menu with the
checkbox in the preferences menu / toolbox section. If anyone wants to
see this menu, they check the option. Option unchecked will hide menu
and make a free space for other tabbed tools pallettes. No problem,
both sides are totally happy :-)

2. The toolbar is smaller and more comfortable and does not hide
window I am working on (ie. when taking a screenshot).

3. It was really nice when working on multiple desktops with lots of
windows - I had some worksets placed around different workspaces. This
is critical functionality for me.

4. It was great for creating new GIMP sub-windows on separate desktops
for each application.

5. Right now I can put/drag the toolbar on a desktop different than
where window resides, but the other toolboxes are following the

6. When I close last window, so called no-window, GIMP quits - what if
I want to have only this toolbar ready to create new picture window
(ie. from a screenshot). If you care about space, no need to have
additional window.

7. I am really used to have this toolbar open on a free workspace and
work on another workspace full of other windows.

8. I cannot execute actions from a toolbar, that was possible when
menu was in there (screenshot, scan, open from clipboard etc). I can
see that there are ideas in the GIMP GUI Brainstorm to bring some
buttons back. So why not to leave whole menu alone? This is critical
functionality for me.

9. Closing the toolbar asks to close all windows - so what it the
point of having additional main-no-window? (again what gain of space
is having huge window on the screen, when we talk about 10px height

> You say that we "Enforce" the UI changes on the users, (..)

With removing some stuff leaving no option for user and listen to no
feedback, unfortunately you are.

> If every program would have an option to get back it's old UI,

I'm not talking about having the old UI for the eternity, but to give
user an option, not to destroy what is nice and useful. I really like
new features introduced in GIMP 2.6 and I am happy that this great
program is still evolving. But making decisions in favor of users and
enforcing them rudely with no alternative, just as Martin did in our
conversation, is far from meaning of "open" to me. Its like "you have
to enter your car by the roof from now on, because this is better for
you and it looks better". I hope he did not represent all of the GIMP
Developer Community, or I will enforce you all to eat only carrots
because this is better for you! ;-)

> 2. It requires lots of work to keep several UI options available - if
> we do this for every UI change, it will result in many code that will
> just be there for compatiability without doing anything more useful.

The functionality was already there, so in fact no additional work was
required, except the changes that were supposed to be introduced.
Right now the menu is also there, nicely redesigned, put into another
window. There should be no trouble to bring it back to the toolbox,
even patches are available on the gimp-classic website - this project
clearly shows that this menu was useful for some people and it's
neither about making a fork nor using outdated version, and enforcing
that changes maybe could have been done as a fork, or simply an
option, not takeover.

> I'm very glad to see the discussion here since we are recieving
> feedback in the right place - and we need user feedback. But unless
> you show some clear case, WHICH IS SUITING THE PRODUCT VISION, where
> the new UI is a problem, I don't see any reason to change back.

I hope the example cases above are simple and gives good overview on
how the menu was used. They mainly come from habits of having menu in
the toolbox (and so trating it as main windows), but also good use of
multidesktop environment that is not a case for current users. I am
sure other people has their own use of this menu. Saying that "no
other program does it" is no argument, even though I showed simple
example of Blender that does it (also for some time it was changing
buttons position, that was horrible, at least key shortcuts were
spared, but gimp menu also had been redesigned for clarity what I can
understand). The all-in-toolbox window was not that bad, although for
Photoshop users might been a bit strange at first sight, so they could
switch back to their beloved photoshop or get used to the GIMP style,
however if anyone prefers to have this no-window although it serves no
purpose, let it happen as an option for those people, because I
prefered GIMP style over pohotshop. You know, I dont use KDE4 because
its similar to Windows7 (in fact I use simple xfce4 wm). People use
some objects, programs or operating systems for some reason, thats how
people are - changing these objects also changes reason to use them.
Habits allows performing some tasks more efficienlty. Changing habits
too often makes even simple task difficult.

Best regards,
Tomek Cedro

CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info
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