Sven,

> Because this decision did never happen. At least I don't remember that
> at anytime anyone ever discussed this topic. The filmgimp code slowly
> diverged from the main GIMP source code, mainly because the GIMP
> source code kept improving. Noone ever brought up the question if the
> code should be merged or even outlined a way how this could be done.
> Don't ask me why this didn't happen, but please don't claim that there
> was a decision made to discard that code.

It seems terribly careless on GIMP's part to lose three man-years of work
and not know how that happened.

> Similarily there wasn't any discussion about a code merge when the
> code was picked up again by you last year. That would have been a good
> chance to finally merge the filmgimp improvements into GIMP proper.
> But for whatever reason this discussion also never took place.

Not discussed? Are you kidding?

A code merge was discussed at length on the filmgimp-developer list in
October and November of last year. That was my earliest opportunity to
discuss it knowledgeably. I'd only been working with the code a few months
then. On November 30, 2002, I posted to the gimp-developer list my
thoughts about the prospects of a merge. You had already made a public post
there, not addressed to me, that was highly critical of me.

Maybe what you mean is I should have said more before October 2002, in July
and August 2002 when the new Film Gimp project was getting underway at
SourceForge? The GIMP lists were down for weeks during July and August of
2002.

Three months before launching Film Gimp at SourceForge, on April 9, 2002, I
announced my intention to release a source tarball and create an up-to-date
web page. That was to gimp-film, GIMP's official list for Film Gimp at the
time. No response.

In March 2002 the first story on Film Gimp appeared in Linux Journal. My
article revealed the method to coax Film Gimp out of GIMP CVS, the first
time the general public was aware where it was and how to get it.

http://linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=5683

It was satisfying reader requests for a source tarball that led me
to becoming the project leader later.

On March 2, 2002, I posted to gimp-developer announcing my Film Gimp article
in Linux Journal. No response to my post.

Yosh (Manish Singh).is listed on gimp.org as the GIMP maintainer. I did
coordinate my Film Gimp plans with Yosh at that time. In fact, the plan then
was that would I manage Film Gimp from gimp.org. To enable that, Yosh said
he would grant me a password at gimp.org. Had that happened that would have
made me officially part of the GIMP team, but months passed and no password.

Yosh was too busy with GIMP to support me and Film Gimp. I suggested
SourceForge would be better choice, that I would just be getting in the way
at GIMP. GEGL, not Film Gimp, was where GIMP wanted to put its energy. I
also talked with Calvin Williamson, the project leader of GEGL. Everyone
agreed. As far as I knew, I was on good terms with everyone at GIMP. I
quoted Calvin about GEGL as part of my Film Gimp article in Linux
Journal. Although sometimes difficult to reach, Yosh was always polite to
me.

Your name isn't listed as the project manager of GIMP. Not then. Not today.
In fact, in checking "Authors" at http://www.gimp.org/the_gimp_about.html
you aren't listed at all. Contacting you didn't occur to me because I had
never heard of you.

My name, on the other hand, was everywhere. Although I didn't know of you,
you should have known of me from the very start. I was prominently in the
press and posting to GIMP lists regarding Film Gimp. You could have
contacted me seeking my cooperation as soon as you learned of my involvement
in Film Gimp, but instead you waited. Your approach has been to attack me
from a public pulpit on the GIMP mailing lists. Your invective remarks are
not addressed to me, but advise third persons against me.

For you to suggest today that the problem was me not communicating enough
shows real cheek. The person out of the loop is you. You have admitted you
have no clue what happened to Film Gimp in 2000 when it was killed or in
2002 when it was resurrected, but that doesn't stop you from publicizing a
negative opinion of it and me.

People tend to assume I'm offended by your remarks since that appears the
intended reaction, but really I can't stop laughing. Where some imagine
Hamlet, I see Much Ado About Nothing. ;-)

Cheers,

Robin

P.S. The posts I mentioned in this note are in the archives, copies
enclosed below.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   Hollywood, California
www.CinePaint.org   Free motion picture and still image editing software


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robin Rowe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2002 4:06 AM
Subject: [Gimp-developer] Re: Film Gimp and GIMP


> Hi. Different thoughts about Film Gimp have been been expressed by Gimp
> folks on the Gimp-developer list over the Thanksgiving holiday. As the
Film
> Gimp release manager, I've found it stimulating reading. Probably anything
> interesting about that "debate" has already been thrashed out by others
> there. All I have to add are a few missing facts.
>
> It is worth noting that the target audience of Film Gimp is motion picture
> studios. It makes sense for Film Gimp to have goals distinct from Gimp.
GEGL
> is a different codebase from Gimp or Film Gimp. All three are run as
> independent projects with different management styles and different goals.
> It is reflection of the diversity and depth of the development and user
> communities that three projects seem justified. Four, if we also count
> ImageMagick.
>
> Windows and Mac ports of Gimp already exist. To do the same with Film Gimp
> is not radical. The Film Gimp porting teams have referred to the Gimp
ports,
> but not followed them closely. The Windows port is not based on gcc or
> cygwin, rather VC++. Regardless of that, Film Gimp is a unifed codebase.
All
> Film Gimp platforms compile from the same code.
>
> Gimp maintainer Sven Neumann says, "the point is that the new film-gimp
> maintainer or any of the people working on film-gimp don't communicate
with
> us at all". It's true I haven't sought Sven out. It was Gimp maintainer
Yosh
> Singh, one of the original Film Gimp developers, that I conferred with. He
> agreed to grant me an account at gimp.org so I could maintain the Film
Gimp
> project at the existing site there, but after months of delays it was
> mutually agreed that SourceForge would be a better home.
>
> Gimp site maintainer RaphaŽl Quinet says the Gimp committee didn't really
> vote against Film Gimp, that "it was only decided that the merge would be
> done later". I wan't there, and can only report what I've learned from
> talking with others. Everyone seems to agree that Gimp never said it was
in
> favor of merging with Film Gimp later. What was said was Film Gimp should
be
> thrown away and re-implemented as GEGL. GEGL is not Film Gimp, therefore
> that imagined later merge would not be with Film Gimp. RaphaŽl is right,
as
> far as I know, that there was no "us versus them" feeling at the vote.
> Everyone was "us" (a Gimp developer) and the vote was unanimous against
> accepting the Film Gimp branch. Although nobody argued Film Gimp should
> live, it woudn't die. There was no available alternative for its users.
>
> Conspiracy theorists may become doubly alarmed, but I've taken RaphaŽl's
> advice and tried to downplay the wording of the Film Gimp history. I've
also
> added more details.
>
>     http://filmgimp.sourceforge.net/docs/history.html
>
> Please note that I work on Film Gimp because I enjoy it. What some imagine
> would be mindless duplication of effort between similar projects I see as
an
> exciting opportunity to create alternative designs to delight users in new
> ways. Many project leaders seem to feel the same way. We have Linux and
BSD,
> KDE and Gnome, and so forth. Being independent has some advantages. Film
> Gimp has achieved tremendous progress since July. In addition to that
> satisfaction, I have the pleasure of working with a team that I enjoy and
> that say they appreciate me.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Robin
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> www.FilmGimp.org
> www.LinuxMovies.org
> www.OpenSourceProgrammers.org


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sven Neumann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Patrick McFarland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2002 8:41 AM
Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] Film Gimp and GIMP


> Hi,
>
> Patrick McFarland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > I dont agree with the gimp and film gimp development groups. Film
> > Gimp should be eventually folded into Gimp 2.0. Having two branches
> > like this sucks bad.  Film Gimp is slowly turning into something
> > that isnt gimp at all, and I see alot of reinventing of wheels, or
> > even parrallel development of the same code, because the development
> > teams dont communicate enough.
>
> the point is that the new film-gimp maintainer or any of the people
> working on film-gimp don't communicate with us at all.  The project
> somehow came back to life without any notification on this
> mailing-list. We had to hear about it in the news.  Among these news
> that appeared on the internet is a lot of wrong information. To me it
> looks as if the film-gimp people try to actively spread FUD about the
> gimp project.
>
> > From what I heard, Gimp originally declined a merge with the
> > hollywood branch, which I see as a serious mistake.
>
> this is exactly the wrong information I referred to above. The
> film-gimp web-site makes you think that the film-gimp people expressed
> an interest to merge and the gimp people refused to take this into
> account. This is just plain wrong.
>
> It has always been the goal of the GIMP developers to merge the
> features needed for film-editing into the main GIMP. This has been a
> major subject on the GIMP developers conference. We were happy to have
> Caroline and Calvin at the conference who explained the concepts of
> GEGL as well as the needs of the film industry to us and I'm glad to
> see that they are still actively developing the GEGL library.
>
> I also liked the idea of the new film-gimp project to make the
> HOLLYWOOD branch available to a larger audience. Building a reasonably
> functional tarball that everyone can build was a good thing to do. Now
> people have something to play with and can start improving the gimp
> core and GEGL so that the main gimp can have these features as well.
>
> The direction the film-gimp project is taking at the moment seems like
> a wasted effort to me. That is my personal opinion and I have strong
> arguments for it but so far none of the film-gimp developers have asked
> for it and I will thus keep my arguments for me.
>
>
> Salut, Sven
> _______________________________________________
> Gimp-developer mailing list
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robin Rowe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Linux Movies"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 7:43 PM
Subject: [Gimp-film] Film Gimp list at
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


> Gimp-film, gimp-user, and gimp-developer, the official gimp lists hosted
at
> UCB for gimp.org, were down from July 23rd to August 5th. I do not know
why
> this happened, but this seems to occur from time to time. While gimp-film
> was down I made a release of Film Gimp, but of course could not announce
> that on gimp-film. There has been some discussion about this release on
the
> LinuxMovies list.
>
> I have created a new Film Gimp list on SourceForge.net that I hope will be
> more dependable.
>
>      http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/filmgimp-developer
>
> The filmgimp-developer list is intended for both developers and users of
> Film Gimp. Please direct your bug reports, comments, and discussion
> regarding Film Gimp to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> The next release of Film Gimp is scheduled for September 1st, 2002.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Robin Rowe
> Film Gimp Release Manager
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> www.LinuxMovies.org
> http://filmgimp.sourceforge.net
> www.OpenSourceProgrammers.org
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Carol Spears" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 3:54 PM
> Subject: [Gimp-user] Re: Gimp lists down
>
>
> > yes they were. they are up now.
> >
> > carol
> >
> > On 2002-08-05 at 1530.38 -0700, Robin Rowe typed this:
> > > Hi. Just wondering, does anyone know why the gimp lists were down from
> July
> > > 23rd to August 5th? What happened?
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Robin
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -
> > > www.LinuxMovies.org
> > > http://filmgimp.sourceforge.net
> > > www.OpenSourceProgrammers.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gimp-film mailing list
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-film

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robin Rowe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 11:50 AM
Subject: [Gimp-film] Re: [LinuxMovies] film gimp


> David,
>
> Since your question relates to Film Gimp I hope nobody minds my cc-ing the
> Film Gimp list.
>
> > Is there a recent version of film gimp available for download
> > somewhere?
>
> Everything is kept in CVS. One of the things I want to do with the Film
Gimp
> Web page is get some source tarballs up there so that people don't have to
> thrash with CVS just to download the program. Caroline said she would do
> that, but she doesn't seem to have had time which led to me taking that
on.
> Now I haven't had time either, but I will get it done eventually. Later
this
> month, I hope.
>
> > I'd be interested in looking at it, especially if
> > there's been any changes in the last year or two.  :)
>
> There are reportedly frequent changes made by Rhythm & Hues, but I haven't
> searched CVS to see where.
>
> > By the way - Hi! I've just joined this list. Not a lot of free time,
> > but lots of interest in linux and film work. I'm a programmer (one
> > of the major Cineon developers, way back when) and occasional
> > compositor (Dark City and Matrix).
>
> Yes, I recognize your name. Glad to meet you. You are the Gimpeon guy
right?
> And, also involved with Matterial? What's the status of your Gimpeon
stuff?
> Is it an alternative to Film Gimp?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Robin
>
> From: "David Hodson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 5:46 AM
> Subject: Re: [LinuxMovies] group status
>
> > Robin Rowe wrote:
> >
> > > Personally, I'm trying to find time to do something with Film Gimp,
> starting
> > > with updating its Web site.
> >
> > Is there a recent version of film gimp available for download
> > somewhere? I'd be interested in looking at it, especially if
> > there's been any changes in the last year or two.  :)  I checked
> > it out when it was first announced, but wasn't convinced that it
> > was the right way to go, for several reasons.
> >
> >
> > By the way - Hi! I've just joined this list. Not a lot of free time,
> > but lots of interest in linux and film work. I'm a programmer (one
> > of the major Cineon developers, way back when) and occasional
> > compositor (Dark City and Matrix).
> >
> > --
> > David Hodson  --  this night wounds time
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gimp-film mailing list
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-film


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robin Rowe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 10:57 PM
Subject: [Gimp-developer] Film Gimp article in Linux Journal


> In case anyone here is interested, there is an article about Film Gimp in
> the current (March) issue of Linux Journal.
>
> And for anyone in the Berkeley, California, vicinity who may be
interested,
> the Linux Graphics Group meets Tuesday, March 5, 2002. Informal discussion
> of Gimp, Film Gimp, etc. Windows and Mac Gimp users welcome, too.
>
> Info at LinuxMovies.org.
>
> Robin
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gimp-developer mailing list
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer

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