I think you're harping too much on the "fun" aspect - of course I find a lot of this "fun" or I wouldn't be doing it in the first place.
As for the invite spamming "tool", it's not a tool per-se. It's simply a script I wrote that enumerates the members of an existing public group, then awks out the community id's. After it fishes that out of the html code, it merely tosses them an invite - an invite that they can choose to ignore. The fact that it's simple for anyone with a teeny bit of scripting ability to create such a thing does nothing more than to outline yet another weakness in their community system - for several reasons. First is that the data is there for ALL to see, and that the "invite this person to your group" link is there for ALL to click... It's a process that is easy to automate - so easy I would argue it's probably exploitable "by design". Secondly the fact that people will blindly click "Accept" to any group you stick in front of them without really caring about its contents. As I said in my original email, this makes the community tools of little value since the community at large is simply joining a group just so they don't have to see the damn invite again. And WOW, Richard - If there's ONE thing I've learned about this whole attack of yours, it's that there's no such thing as bad publicity! Thanks for that :) -Karl ________________________________________ From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Richard Eid [richard....@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 2:11 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :) Maybe you wanna go back and read past the first sentence. I said that it's not *always* going to be fun. Besides, there is no written or un-written guarantee that exists that says it's supposed to be fun *at all*. You're building a community, not playing a game. It seems to me that you're mixing the two concepts. It's like saying being a mayor should be fun because the city offers a summer softball league. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/community [Snip again, man, I thought *I* was long winded] Ask around and look to some of the actual communities worth their weight, not ones built on the fact that tons of gamers will just join a group because it involves drugs and alcohol and spams invites with an invite spamming *tool*. There are plenty of them out there that have nothing but respect for their players and offer a safe haven for these so called "jaded players" that your community sounds like it's filled with. -Richard Eid On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 12:45 PM, Karl Weckstrom <k...@weckstrom.com> wrote: > I don't agree with Richard. He doesn't agree with me. It's a free country > :) > > I don't see how anyone could subscribe to the view that "Community building > shouldn't be any fun" when the community topic involves gaming - and that if > it turns out being that way for you, you should merely accept it. > > I reject that on principle - but hey, let's face it, for a lot of people in > here there is a very fine line between "Hobby" and "Mental Illness". > > > > ________________________________________ > From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [ > hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Major NuT [ > mjr...@gmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2009 4:00 PM > To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com > Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :) > > I reiterate the assessment by Richard. Kudos for an articulate layout and > for Valve at being proactive. Now the question is...to the person that > kept > saying, _it's a symptom, it's a symptom_.. w/o stating what the problem in > the same sentence, do you agree with Richard? ;) You don't have to > answer, > but I think it's more than fair since you initiated such a > characterization. > > > [FLASH] MjrNuT > Arise from Flames and Ash, Behold Immortality > > www.flamesandash.com > > > Message: 7 > > Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2009 19:46:43 +0000 > > From: Patrick Shelley <sidest...@gmail.com> > > Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :) > > To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list > > <hlds@list.valvesoftware.com> > > Message-ID: > > <c80a52490903151246h69092fbdr8dcc2b9c91add...@mail.gmail.com > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > bang on target richard. > > i think you summed up exactly what the actual problem is.... server > admin's on their pedestal. > > > > On 15/03/2009, Richard Eid <richard....@gmail.com> wrote: > > Who said that creating, building and eventually maintaining a community > is > > supposed to be any fun. It is what you make of it, I suppose, but it's > not > > always fun. If all the administration and management isn't your cup of > tea, > > then you're in the wrong business. Attention to detail is a big part of > a > > running a successful community and if any one aspect is ignored, the > > community eventually starts to deteriorate. Like I keep saying...the > > community isn't about you, it's about the players. Sometimes you have to > > sacrifice your own satisfaction to appease and satisfy the community's > > needs. If you're doing it solely for the purpose of being looked up to > or > > to feel that players consider you "above the rest", you're doing it all > > wrong. > > > > This is a huge problem nowadays. Server operators feel they are somehow > > above the players and should be treated as such. It shows in the > attitude > > of a lot of people on this list, which I'm sure echoes throughout the the > > rest of the server operator population that doesn't participate here. It > > also obviously shows in the subsequent actions that server operators > take. > > Yes, you run servers so that people can play Valve's games. But guess > > what? So do so many other people. And a lot of them are satisfied with > > what Valve does with the game and the servers. I'm sick and tired of > > hearing the argument that without people to run thier servers, the games, > > and subsequently Valve, would die. Do me a favor and refresh your Server > > Browser. Does anyone see a shortage of servers to play on? That > argument > > needs to stop right now. None of us are special, nor do we deserve > anything > > for running a server. You made the choice to run a server. If you don't > > like the direction Valve is taking us, make another decision to stop > running > > that server, it's simple. You aren't above the players, but you're free > to > > keep thinking that as your servers sit empty. I've always heard that > it's > > lonely up on that pedestal, anyway. > > > > This new ranking system serves to directly address this problem as it > will > > force server operators to live up to a higher standard and give the > players > > what they want. That's what Valve has always been about, at least in my > > eyes. It's what the Custom tab was all about but was shunned by the > people > > who thought it would hurt their servers. I don't recall any of the > players > > complaining about it, though. When server operators broke that system, > > Valve removed it because, at that point, it served no purpose. It wasn't > > helping players like it was originally intended to do. Players began to > > complain that custom servers were still on the Internet tab, but they > never > > complained that the Custom tab existed. Most server operators didn't > even > > give that system a chance before they decided they were going to work > around > > it, anyway. Even though it's gone, I still see a lot of the tools that > were > > designed to work around it still available and in use on tons of servers. > > That goes to show that people don't care about their communities, only > the > > well being of their precious server. > > > > I'm not saying that every server operator fits this description, but I > feel > > that more do than don't. This is now being dealt with. > > > > Bad servers aren't the problem, I agree. Bad servers are a symptom. The > > problem is bad server operators. And this solution does a lot to give > > server operators incentive to run better servers...honest servers. > Servers > > that players want to play on, not servers that the operator wants to play > > on. Yeah, yeah, you pay for the server so you'll run it however you > want. > > Fine, play by yourself. But be honest about what's going on or pay the > > price(read: be delisted). With the way the ranking system has been > > described, it seems to me that it is the players who are deciding what > the > > players want, not Valve...and thankfully now, not server operators. Read > > that blog post back over. > > > > What types of tools are you looking for to promote your community? It > seems > > like between Steam and the rest of the Internet, there are more than > enough > > tools to promote your community. If you can't find a way to get that job > > done, you're not trying hard enough. I think that's a very poor excuse > for > > tricking players into joining your servers anyway. People aren't using > > these tactics because the right tools aren't available, they're using > these > > tactics because they can and because they either lack morals or think > it's > > the right way to build a community. But mostly I think they're worried > > about how their server population reflects upon their own personal > status. > > > > I won't try to put words into Valve's mouth and I obviously don't speak > for > > them, but you said: > > > > *Is Valve saying they want server admins to WORK to keep their servers > > popular in some sadistic way? > > * > > Uh...shouldn't that be a given? You said it at the beginning of your > > response. "Work is involved." Just because you set up a server doesn't > > mean it's supposed to or going to be full all the time. We'd all like > for > > that to be the case, but the reality is different. You have to give > people > > a reason to come back. You have to differentiate yourself from the rest > in > > some way. It's the players who will ultimately make or break your > > community, not Valve. You can be the catalyst for your community, but > > without players, where are you? > > > > And no, I'm not saying that you need a team of people who can be on-call > to > > fill your servers all the time. I'm only suggesting that it's one good > way > > to get your server(s)/community going. If people see that there are > always > > players in the server, in the future, they'd be more likely to join that > > server even if it were empty because they'd assume that more people are > > probably only a few minutes away. You shouldn't have a problem with this > > anyway. If you started a server in the first place, I'm going to assume > > that you wanted to have a place for you and some or all of your friends > to > > play. What other reason would you have a server? Oh yeah...to measure > your > > status in the world. > > > > For instance, there is a group of servers that I play on. They are > almost > > always packed full at the times I want to play. Sometimes I'll notice > that > > they're completely empty, though. I still join one of their servers > because > > when I do, someone else joins. Then two more people join. Then five > more > > people join. Then, before I know what happened, it's full. And that all > > started by me making the Server Browser show 1/24. > > > > Those other 23 players may not have joined for the same reason I did, > > though. I think a lot of them joined because A) there was a slot open > and > > 2) because the servers in that community are operated well and are a > > pleasurable place to play. They give me a reason to come back, just like > > they gave almost all of the other 23 players that came in after me a > reason > > to come back. Yeah, there are a few that joined because they saw an > almost > > full server, but the majority are players I've seen there before. They > had > > a reason to come back besides it being a full server. So the guy(or gal) > > that joined when it was 3/24 may be the guy that seeds it next time. > Same > > as the person that joined it when it was 23/24 because he/she found it an > > awesome place to play and hopes that he/she can get a good game going the > > next time around. Each person may have their own reasons for returning > to > a > > server, I have mine. But I guess I can't say specifically what those > > reasons are other than I just like playing there with the others that > join. > > > > And this community in particular doesn't "cheat". They run an > > honest-to-goodness community and have never done anything to alienate the > > playerbase. They aren't the only community I frequent that I can say > this > > about, either. I'd like to know how you came to the conclusion that > these > > servers you've researched "cheat". Could you also provide some > > clarification on "cheat"? I feel like you may be embellishing a little > bit > > to help your side of the argument, but I'll wait until you clarify and/or > > qualify that statement before I come to that conclusion. Good > communities > > are solid and their servers stay full because they are straight-up with > and > > good to their players. Maybe my definition of a good community differs > from > > yours. > > > > Either way, you still haven't defined what you consider to be "the > problem". > > > > -Richard Eid > > _______________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > > please visit: > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > > -- > Sent from my mobile device > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > _______________________________________________ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds _______________________________________________ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
