> -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:hlds- > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Karl Weckstrom > Sent: 15 March 2009 01:55 > To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list > Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :) > > Is Valve saying they want server admins to WORK to keep their servers > popular in some sadistic way? Sure sounds like what you're saying. I > love gaming on my PC. But it's likely true that neither one of us can > make it a full time job. This is a hobby for most.
I don't see that valve are saying anything about that one way or another. But if the number of tf2 players is X, the number of servers is Y, and X/Y is less than, say, 16, it stands to reason that there's an oversupply of servers and so their admins either have to be happy if they aren't used, or may have to exert themselves to ensure that. But server scoring has nothing to do with popularity (an honestly 0-current-player server won't get delisted) and everything to do with misrepresentation > > I hate to say it, but we HAVE researched what the "Full" servers do. > They cheat. It's sad, but for the most part, it's true. > This is the reason I'm actually responding to your post... what do you mean by "cheat"? If you mean misrepresentation like fake client stats then isn't that what these metrics are supposed to identify and counteract? If you mean something else that still means people want to join the servers for a significant amount of time, then what's the issue? > Again, their step is in the right direction, and luckily I'm on the > right side of their equation when it comes to TG. But I still feel > Valve is treating a symptom, not the actual problem. > > -k > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:hlds- > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Richard Eid > Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2009 8:27 PM > To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list > Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :) > > But the problem here are the server operators, not the players. Nobody > forced them to rent/buy/whatever a server that's going to sit idle > while > they keep paying some GSP every month. That was their own decision. > Just > because you can doesn't always mean that you should. So when a server > sits > idle and the operator resorts to dishonest tactics to get people to > join, > why shouldn't that be addressed? *That* is the problem. Valve can't > do > anything to discourage people from making bad decisions, though. > People > will do what people will do. > > It doesn't take an act of God to fill a server and keep it full. It > takes > good features that players want and good administration. Yes, there > are > many servers out there now, but so many of them are running heavily > modified > versions of the game that might be fun for a quick visit here and > there, > just not an every day thing. In the long run, though, I think most > players > want to just play the game as it was intended. When I fire up TF2 and > start > my daily grind, I just want to play TF2. Not a game that looks like > TF2 > with all the rules changed. > > Another important thing to keep in mind if you're thinking about > starting up > a server/community, you can't just download the server and put the > plugins > you want on and expect it to fill. Do some research before hand and > see > what the servers that are always full do. Yes, you probably want to > offer > something else that other communities might not have to differentiate > yourself from the bunch, but the gameplay itself should stay the same. > > You're also gonna probably want a dedicated group of people that can > seed > the server on a constant basis. You might also want to offer a website > where people can discuss community or server issues or just talk about > whatever. You could also tell people on your Friends list that you > have a > server and to come check it out. Maybe once the community grows big > enough, > start to offer servers for other games. The list goes on and on, but > all of > that still falls short of "an act of God". It takes hard work and > dedication. And even then, it still might fall short of success. > Sometimes > that's just the way the cookie crumbles. > > My point is that people start up servers and think they're gonna be the > next > best thing. But they don't know what it takes to get a community going > and > keep it running smoothly. So when it doesn't go as expected, they > begin to > do things that they think might be good for them(like fake-clients), > but in > the short and the long term, all it really does is serve to alienate > the > playerbase. > > I think the problem is being addressed here. Since ranks aren't being > made > public, there's no better or best score. There's only a good and bad. > If > you want to have a positive score, you have to offer people something > that > keeps them playing at your joint. There isn't really anything server > operators can do to inflate the score, either. Either you give people > a > reason to stay, or you're probably doing something to make them leave. > Sure, you'll have the comers and goers, but those people won't affect > your > score nearly as much as the people that stay connected...your > community. > And with a good community comes even more players that stay for > extended > periods of time. And with more players staying longer comes a bigger > community. > > In the long run, this will turn out to be a good thing for everybody, > server > operators included. More delisted servers means a higher chance that > your > server will be shown to people when they refresh the Server Browser. I > think we could all go for a little more exposure in this regard, right? > > But just a quick question, because maybe I missed the point of your > first > message, but what exactly is the problem they're not addressing? If > they > are only addressing a symptom of the problem, what is the actual > problem, > specifically? > > -Richard Eid > > > On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 12:18 AM, Karl Weckstrom <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > I still think they're treating the symptom rather than the problem. > > > > Though granted - sometimes you have no choice. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Patrick Shelley > > Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 11:57 PM > > To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list > > Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :) > > > > The *paying* players are THE most important aspect of this. > > > > Im on both sides of the fence, but im with the players all the way on > this. > > You only got to check the forums to see just how many paying players > moan > > about lieing cheating server admins who manipulate the system. It > stinks. > > > > They wont care one iota for de-listing servers or GSP's moaning about > their > > IP's. They'll embrace this. You watch. > > > > Players are fickle - i dont run a clan anymore, i got sick of people > > joining, leaving, joining, leaving etc etc. This week alone i seen 2 > mates > > wear 2 different tags. Most players dont give a hoot for communities, > they > > want to belong, but when they do, they think the grass is greener on > the > > other side. > > > > http://www.sidesteal.com/images/ach.png > > > > This scoring system will be one of the best things valve has done for > its > > customers. > > > > > > > > On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 2:35 AM, Karl Weckstrom <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > Yep. Agreed. > > > > > > I think that WHATEVER the solution is, it should reward the people > that > > > work hard to make their community popular. > > > > > > The current solutions out there don't quite do that... Every time I > send > > > out a game event, 50 people leave the steamgroup even though they > > > voluntarily joined - not exactly the intended effect :) While > people > > still > > > join the server, there's no telling how many people from > Absurdistan will > > > connect, see their ping responses are apparently being delivered by > UPS, > > > then quit - which tells me that the whole Steamgroup system needs > some > > more > > > control around it - but in a way where it's still useful to server > > > operators. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of msleeper > > > Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 10:31 PM > > > To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list > > > Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :) > > > > > > Yeah, the best of us have all been there. 3v3 Dustbowl in a 32 man > > > server for weeks. Eventually you find enough like-minded people and > add > > > enough people to your friends list and spam the hell out of the > best > > > feature that has ever been created, Invite To Game, that you hit a > > > critical mass and can stand up on your own. > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 2009-03-14 at 02:25 +0000, steve grout wrote: > > > > quote | > > > > > > > > But at the same time, I can see why others would do it. They are > simply > > > doing one thing - trying to attract players in this extremely > difficult > > > market. |/quote > > > > > > > > yes they are trying to attract people but in a dishonest and VERY > lazy > > > way.. it shoes that they are not prepared to put the work in to > populate > > the > > > servers... i know for one that i have sat alone many an hour on a > server > > to > > > get people in. Fake slot = lazy imho > > > > > > > > > > > > Karl Weckstrom wrote: > > > > > I've been meaning to post about the whole subject of Server > Scoring, > > > but I wanted to read everything you guys posted, let it sink in and > all > > > that. > > > > > > > > > > I'm glad you've been putting some thought into this - but I > hope you > > > take a step back and look at the bigger picture. I hope you'll read > this > > and > > > also let it soak in, even if it's just one man's opinion. > > > > > > > > > > Now - I own and partially run the Trashedgamers.com community. > We're > > > quite new, only around about 6 months. But in the golden days of > old, I > > ran > > > another gaming community called "Railbait" (www.railbait.com, now > > > defunct). > > > > > > > > > > 10 years ago, things were a lot different. Running a gameserver > means > > > you were actually spent some money on bandwidth and hardware as > opposed > > to > > > today. If you ran a server and it was fairly decently policed, you > were > > > pretty much guaranteed it would be popular. At the height of > Railbait's > > > times, we had nearly 200 player slots filled 24x7 and it was nearly > > > effortless to accomplish. We never had to work to fill servers, > people > > would > > > voluntarily pug some people and do it themselves. People were just > HAPPY > > > that they had a new place to play! > > > > > > > > > > Times are much different now. Bandwidth is cheap, and anyone > with > > mommy > > > or daddy's cable connection can potentially run a server, or they > can pay > > a > > > few bucks a month and rent one. Webhosting costs next to nothing. > > Symmetric > > > fiber lines are $70/mo for 20/20 in certain areas, etc. > > > > > > > > > > So it's time you realized something, Valve - and take this to > heart: > > > There's such a huge surplus of servers out there now, it > practically > > takes > > > an act of God to actually make any given one popular. Players now > have SO > > > many choices (dare I say, TOO many choices) that they have become > > extremely > > > jaded. A tight-knit community is so incredibly hard to form today, > many > > > server owners simply don't bother with the extra work that comes > along > > with > > > community building. > > > > > > > > > > The problem (and solution) you discuss on the Teamfortress blog > is an > > > interesting read and is absolutely a step in the right direction. > However > > I > > > think what you're seeing with these "Bad" servers is a SYMPTOM of > the > > real > > > problem - NOT the problem itself. > > > > > > > > > > Now, don't get me wrong - if I were to join a server > advertising > > 30/32 > > > players only to find it was empty or close to it, I would be > annoyed > > > personally - and we certainly don't use this particular tactic at > > > TrashedGamers. But at the same time, I can see why others would do > it. > > They > > > are simply doing one thing - trying to attract players in this > extremely > > > difficult market. They WANT people to play there because they have > put > > forth > > > the time and effort to put up these servers, websites and what not > in an > > > attempt to run a successful, thriving community. While I might > disagree > > with > > > the method, I don't find any malice in its intent. I'm not trying > to > > justify > > > their actions, I'm simply good at playing Devil's Advocate. > > > > > > > > > > Now - you might argue that you made this SteamCommunity.com > > > infrastructure to help build communities, but this is also flawed > in a > > > sense. I assume that you built this infrastructure so members who > > frequent > > > certain servers, have similar interests (like cookies) and what not > will > > > have a common meeting place. Personally, we use it as a userbase > for > > filling > > > our servers. > > > > > > > > > > Toss up an event, and the server will be full in under 5 > minutes, and > > > for us - stay that way sometimes for several days. But this too has > a > > dark > > > side as I'm SURE you're aware. Man, we invite everybody. Since > everyone's > > > community ID is out there in the open for anyone to grab, inviting > > massive > > > amounts of people in a fairly short time is trivial. We do it. That > > > Kifferstupidwhatever group does it. I would argue that ALL the top > 10-20 > > > groups have done it or are still actively doing it. But is the > > > SteamCommunity site really serving its intended purpose? I doubt it > :) > > > > > > > > > > So - before you consider a mass delisting of servers that are > using > > > whatever trickery to keep them active, consider the actual root of > the > > > problem - NOT just the symptoms. Before doing anything crass, > please > > > consider that we server operators and community owners need the > proper > > tools > > > to make both your titles and our communities popular. > > > > > > > > > > In order for any solution to work, you must ensure that one > thing > > > remains paramount - the symbiotic relationship between Valve and > the > > people > > > who host your servers. > > > > > > > > > > I've said my piece, I won't say anything else about it :) > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > > archives, > > > please visit: > > > > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > archives, > > > please visit: > > > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > archives, > > > please visit: > > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > archives, > > > please visit: > > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > archives, > > please visit: > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > archives, > > please visit: > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds _______________________________________________ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
