Richard, Again, I'm not saying those tactics are even morally sound. I'm saying I understand why they would do it, and that it's a SYMPTOM - not the actual problem.
My point is that anyone these days can start a server and put it on the internet. But it just being there isn't enough as you've pointed out. Server admins need promotion tools to attract players. Work is involved. Work is work. Is it the destiny of every server admin out there to participate in painstaking work in order to have a successful community? Don't you think that might take the fun out of it? Because let's face it - that's how it is today. Player attraction isn't a new concept :) Remember those "Arcade" things that used to exist back in the 80's? They all had "attract modes". There's a reason for that. To say that all it takes is "good features" and "good administration"? That's Ambiguous, Subjective and Nebulous all at the same time. What's "dishonest" these days? Who decides? I guess it's valve - and if it is, I felt it necessary to point out that this whole "bad server" thing is a symptom, and not the actual problem. A way to promote is a NECESSITY. We don't have the right tools today. If we did, then you wouldn't see all these underhanded tactics in use out there. If you think that most people want to play the game as it was intended, I would MOSTLY agree - but ask any server admin how much more difficult to keep a 24 player server going over a 32 player server. If a 24 player server loses 12 players, it's effectively dead in the water. If a 32 player server loses 12 players, it can (and likely will) recover. Is Valve saying they want server admins to WORK to keep their servers popular in some sadistic way? Sure sounds like what you're saying. I love gaming on my PC. But it's likely true that neither one of us can make it a full time job. This is a hobby for most. As for "dedicated people" being required to fill servers - that only highlights the problems out there. Should a dedicated team of people be REQUIRED to be on hand to "fill" a server? That sure sounds like a "JOB" to me, and not simply the act of playing a game. We've been playing the "fill the server" game for 6 months now. It's kind of old - for all involved. Including me. That's why we use events in our overinflated steam group. It's not elegant, but it works. I hate to say it, but we HAVE researched what the "Full" servers do. They cheat. It's sad, but for the most part, it's true. Again, their step is in the right direction, and luckily I'm on the right side of their equation when it comes to TG. But I still feel Valve is treating a symptom, not the actual problem. -k -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Richard Eid Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2009 8:27 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :) But the problem here are the server operators, not the players. Nobody forced them to rent/buy/whatever a server that's going to sit idle while they keep paying some GSP every month. That was their own decision. Just because you can doesn't always mean that you should. So when a server sits idle and the operator resorts to dishonest tactics to get people to join, why shouldn't that be addressed? *That* is the problem. Valve can't do anything to discourage people from making bad decisions, though. People will do what people will do. It doesn't take an act of God to fill a server and keep it full. It takes good features that players want and good administration. Yes, there are many servers out there now, but so many of them are running heavily modified versions of the game that might be fun for a quick visit here and there, just not an every day thing. In the long run, though, I think most players want to just play the game as it was intended. When I fire up TF2 and start my daily grind, I just want to play TF2. Not a game that looks like TF2 with all the rules changed. Another important thing to keep in mind if you're thinking about starting up a server/community, you can't just download the server and put the plugins you want on and expect it to fill. Do some research before hand and see what the servers that are always full do. Yes, you probably want to offer something else that other communities might not have to differentiate yourself from the bunch, but the gameplay itself should stay the same. You're also gonna probably want a dedicated group of people that can seed the server on a constant basis. You might also want to offer a website where people can discuss community or server issues or just talk about whatever. You could also tell people on your Friends list that you have a server and to come check it out. Maybe once the community grows big enough, start to offer servers for other games. The list goes on and on, but all of that still falls short of "an act of God". It takes hard work and dedication. And even then, it still might fall short of success. Sometimes that's just the way the cookie crumbles. My point is that people start up servers and think they're gonna be the next best thing. But they don't know what it takes to get a community going and keep it running smoothly. So when it doesn't go as expected, they begin to do things that they think might be good for them(like fake-clients), but in the short and the long term, all it really does is serve to alienate the playerbase. I think the problem is being addressed here. Since ranks aren't being made public, there's no better or best score. There's only a good and bad. If you want to have a positive score, you have to offer people something that keeps them playing at your joint. There isn't really anything server operators can do to inflate the score, either. Either you give people a reason to stay, or you're probably doing something to make them leave. Sure, you'll have the comers and goers, but those people won't affect your score nearly as much as the people that stay connected...your community. And with a good community comes even more players that stay for extended periods of time. And with more players staying longer comes a bigger community. In the long run, this will turn out to be a good thing for everybody, server operators included. More delisted servers means a higher chance that your server will be shown to people when they refresh the Server Browser. I think we could all go for a little more exposure in this regard, right? But just a quick question, because maybe I missed the point of your first message, but what exactly is the problem they're not addressing? If they are only addressing a symptom of the problem, what is the actual problem, specifically? -Richard Eid On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 12:18 AM, Karl Weckstrom <[email protected]> wrote: > I still think they're treating the symptom rather than the problem. > > Though granted - sometimes you have no choice. > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Patrick Shelley > Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 11:57 PM > To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list > Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :) > > The *paying* players are THE most important aspect of this. > > Im on both sides of the fence, but im with the players all the way on this. > You only got to check the forums to see just how many paying players moan > about lieing cheating server admins who manipulate the system. It stinks. > > They wont care one iota for de-listing servers or GSP's moaning about their > IP's. They'll embrace this. You watch. > > Players are fickle - i dont run a clan anymore, i got sick of people > joining, leaving, joining, leaving etc etc. This week alone i seen 2 mates > wear 2 different tags. Most players dont give a hoot for communities, they > want to belong, but when they do, they think the grass is greener on the > other side. > > http://www.sidesteal.com/images/ach.png > > This scoring system will be one of the best things valve has done for its > customers. > > > > On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 2:35 AM, Karl Weckstrom <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > Yep. Agreed. > > > > I think that WHATEVER the solution is, it should reward the people that > > work hard to make their community popular. > > > > The current solutions out there don't quite do that... Every time I send > > out a game event, 50 people leave the steamgroup even though they > > voluntarily joined - not exactly the intended effect :) While people > still > > join the server, there's no telling how many people from Absurdistan will > > connect, see their ping responses are apparently being delivered by UPS, > > then quit - which tells me that the whole Steamgroup system needs some > more > > control around it - but in a way where it's still useful to server > > operators. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of msleeper > > Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 10:31 PM > > To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list > > Subject: Re: [hlds] Server Scoring - an open letter to Valve :) > > > > Yeah, the best of us have all been there. 3v3 Dustbowl in a 32 man > > server for weeks. Eventually you find enough like-minded people and add > > enough people to your friends list and spam the hell out of the best > > feature that has ever been created, Invite To Game, that you hit a > > critical mass and can stand up on your own. > > > > > > On Sat, 2009-03-14 at 02:25 +0000, steve grout wrote: > > > quote | > > > > > > But at the same time, I can see why others would do it. They are simply > > doing one thing - trying to attract players in this extremely difficult > > market. |/quote > > > > > > yes they are trying to attract people but in a dishonest and VERY lazy > > way.. it shoes that they are not prepared to put the work in to populate > the > > servers... i know for one that i have sat alone many an hour on a server > to > > get people in. Fake slot = lazy imho > > > > > > > > > Karl Weckstrom wrote: > > > > I've been meaning to post about the whole subject of Server Scoring, > > but I wanted to read everything you guys posted, let it sink in and all > > that. > > > > > > > > I'm glad you've been putting some thought into this - but I hope you > > take a step back and look at the bigger picture. I hope you'll read this > and > > also let it soak in, even if it's just one man's opinion. > > > > > > > > Now - I own and partially run the Trashedgamers.com community. We're > > quite new, only around about 6 months. But in the golden days of old, I > ran > > another gaming community called "Railbait" (www.railbait.com, now > > defunct). > > > > > > > > 10 years ago, things were a lot different. Running a gameserver means > > you were actually spent some money on bandwidth and hardware as opposed > to > > today. If you ran a server and it was fairly decently policed, you were > > pretty much guaranteed it would be popular. At the height of Railbait's > > times, we had nearly 200 player slots filled 24x7 and it was nearly > > effortless to accomplish. We never had to work to fill servers, people > would > > voluntarily pug some people and do it themselves. People were just HAPPY > > that they had a new place to play! > > > > > > > > Times are much different now. Bandwidth is cheap, and anyone with > mommy > > or daddy's cable connection can potentially run a server, or they can pay > a > > few bucks a month and rent one. Webhosting costs next to nothing. > Symmetric > > fiber lines are $70/mo for 20/20 in certain areas, etc. > > > > > > > > So it's time you realized something, Valve - and take this to heart: > > There's such a huge surplus of servers out there now, it practically > takes > > an act of God to actually make any given one popular. Players now have SO > > many choices (dare I say, TOO many choices) that they have become > extremely > > jaded. A tight-knit community is so incredibly hard to form today, many > > server owners simply don't bother with the extra work that comes along > with > > community building. > > > > > > > > The problem (and solution) you discuss on the Teamfortress blog is an > > interesting read and is absolutely a step in the right direction. However > I > > think what you're seeing with these "Bad" servers is a SYMPTOM of the > real > > problem - NOT the problem itself. > > > > > > > > Now, don't get me wrong - if I were to join a server advertising > 30/32 > > players only to find it was empty or close to it, I would be annoyed > > personally - and we certainly don't use this particular tactic at > > TrashedGamers. But at the same time, I can see why others would do it. > They > > are simply doing one thing - trying to attract players in this extremely > > difficult market. They WANT people to play there because they have put > forth > > the time and effort to put up these servers, websites and what not in an > > attempt to run a successful, thriving community. While I might disagree > with > > the method, I don't find any malice in its intent. I'm not trying to > justify > > their actions, I'm simply good at playing Devil's Advocate. > > > > > > > > Now - you might argue that you made this SteamCommunity.com > > infrastructure to help build communities, but this is also flawed in a > > sense. I assume that you built this infrastructure so members who > frequent > > certain servers, have similar interests (like cookies) and what not will > > have a common meeting place. Personally, we use it as a userbase for > filling > > our servers. > > > > > > > > Toss up an event, and the server will be full in under 5 minutes, and > > for us - stay that way sometimes for several days. But this too has a > dark > > side as I'm SURE you're aware. Man, we invite everybody. Since everyone's > > community ID is out there in the open for anyone to grab, inviting > massive > > amounts of people in a fairly short time is trivial. We do it. That > > Kifferstupidwhatever group does it. I would argue that ALL the top 10-20 > > groups have done it or are still actively doing it. But is the > > SteamCommunity site really serving its intended purpose? I doubt it :) > > > > > > > > So - before you consider a mass delisting of servers that are using > > whatever trickery to keep them active, consider the actual root of the > > problem - NOT just the symptoms. Before doing anything crass, please > > consider that we server operators and community owners need the proper > tools > > to make both your titles and our communities popular. > > > > > > > > In order for any solution to work, you must ensure that one thing > > remains paramount - the symbiotic relationship between Valve and the > people > > who host your servers. > > > > > > > > I've said my piece, I won't say anything else about it :) > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list > archives, > > please visit: > > > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > > please visit: > > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > > please visit: > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > > _______________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > > please visit: > > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > _______________________________________________ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds _______________________________________________ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
