> > Because you don't use ads and your community is dying so you want to see > if Valve can kill off whatever little competition there is left for > community players?
Nothing to do with competition. I've actually never paid much attention to what other server operators are doing as I'm more concerned what the players are saying...and if you think that ads haven't given community servers a bad reputation among the general player population (deserved or not), then you haven't been paying attention. Why wouldn't they already flock to your servers if being ad-free was such a > boon? Yeah, this pretty much goes back to the OT of this conversion - the fact that the default quickplay setting negatively affects ALL community servers, regardless of how "great" they may be. How do you see this change bringing all the players at Saigns back to your > servers when they don't even have ads? I think you might have a bit of tunnel vision when it comes to these Saigns folks. I've never really thought along the lines of "if this community goes away, then mine will do better." I really don't think one correlates to the other, as there are so many other factors involved (geographic location, network quality, etc.). Frankly, if/when our servers go away, a large portion of my players (who've been with us for 7+ years) will most likely simply stop playing the game. This kind of behavior is why we are here in the first place. People > thinking that whatever restrictions Valve puts in place isn't going to > affect them, and begging for more restrictions that affects everyone but > themselves..It makes me laugh. I doubt eliminating motd ads would benefit our community directly in any way, quite frankly. I DO, however, think it would greatly benefit the game by removing what is perceived as a negative aspect of community servers by a very large swath of players. It certainly wouldn't fix all of the other perfectly valid issues you mentioned, but perception is important, and while it might not be a boon for the funding model of some communities (most of which, I would think, will survive just fine through donations if they simply received equal treatment as they had in the past), it would certainly be a good step towards restoring the perception a good many player have of community servers. But I get it - some people want the ability to run ads on their servers without restriction, and some see them as harmful overall to the future of the game itself. Time will tell which group Valve thinks is right. That's if, of course, they do anything at all. If the last two years is any indication, we're probably all talking to ourselves right now ;-) On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 10:17 PM, Robert Paulson <[email protected]> wrote: > Ok and where did I make a personal attack? Unless you mean you have > nothing to say but a personal attack. > > "Getting rid of motd ads might not bring community servers back, but it > might bring players back to community servers, and that would be a step in > the right direction." > > And how do you suppose it will? Because you don't use ads and your > community is dying so you want to see if Valve can kill off whatever little > competition there is left for community players? Why wouldn't they already > flock to your servers if being ad-free was such a boon? How do you see > this change bringing all the players at Saigns back to your servers when > they don't even have ads? > > This kind of behavior is why we are here in the first place. People > thinking that whatever restrictions Valve puts in place isn't going to > affect them, and begging for more restrictions that affects everyone but > themselves..It makes me laugh. > > > > On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 5:47 PM, E. Olsen <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Yeah, I'm not going take a debate into personal attacks, bud. >> >> Getting rid of motd ads might not bring community servers back, but it >> might bring players back to community servers, and that would be a step in >> the right direction. >> >> Feel free to have the last word advocating for them, though - we'll just >> have to see if Valve makes a decision either way who was in the right in >> the end. >> >> On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 8:20 PM, Robert Paulson <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> I don't need to know more about Valve than you do. All I need is logic. >>> >>> Patch: MOTD blocked for all quickplay users >>> What Happened: Quickplay users see no ads. Non-quickplay users can see >>> ads. >>> >>> Patch: Quickplay defaults to official servers >>> What Happened: Quickplay users see no ads. Non-quickplay users can see >>> ads. >>> >>> In terms of ads, there is absolutely no difference. It is obvious Valve >>> was concerned about having to police pay2win and similar mods. >>> >>> Even before ads existed on TF2, fake players was rampant. Saigns and >>> Nighteam both never worried about players leaving in droves when they saw >>> donators shooting 10x faster. And they still ended up with the most >>> players. They did not need to worry about convincing everyone to pay. You >>> only need 1 out of 1000 players to pay to make a profit. That's how >>> free2play works. How late did you join TF2 that you don't even know this? >>> >>> With or without ads there is an incentive to cheat the system. Even now >>> you have servers breaking the rules. This is an observable fact. This is >>> not an opinion. >>> >>> So actually no. You are still wrong. And beating of the dead horse of >>> ads isn't going to bring community servers back. Next thing you know Valve >>> will just remove the motd and do nothing else. >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 4:10 PM, E. Olsen <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> The more you keep beating this dead horse, the more you fill the >>>>> mailing list with gibberish that Valve simply doesn't care about. >>>> >>>> >>>> Let's not pretend that you know any more about what Valve cares about >>>> than I do. Maybe you're right - I don't think that's the case, but then >>>> again we'll not know unless Valve actually says once and for all "THIS is >>>> why we made the change two years ago, and this is what we want to prevent." >>>> >>>> However, there is absolutely no doubt that MOTD ads have been a >>>> negative towards player perception of community servers. Hell, I've never >>>> used them, nor frequented a server that does, but I have reason to hate >>>> them if for no other reasons than I had to give up the long-standing >>>> functionality of the MOTD window for quickplay players simply because those >>>> ads were being abused - yet another thing we lost because of the abuse of >>>> others. >>>> >>>> Another flaw in your argument is this: >>>> >>>> There is a way to monetize players connecting to a server that is never >>>>> going away. And that is premium status. >>>> >>>> >>>> Actually, no. >>>> >>>> Those kinds of operators, while they certainly had/have no place in >>>> quickplay, DID have to convince players to donate for the premium "perks" >>>> (or whatever they call them), so players aren't monetized simply by >>>> connecting to those server, they had to see some kind of value in giving >>>> those servers some $$$. >>>> >>>> ...and frankly, I have no beef with that, as long as they are playing >>>> by the rules, and abiding by the "Policy of Truth"/Quickplay Rules, etc. If >>>> there are players that find that kind of silly silly stuff fun, they should >>>> be able to pay for if they like. >>>> >>>> That's the distinction - one source of revenue encourages building >>>> value in a server environment, the other focuses solely on attaining the >>>> maximum possible player connections. It might be little difference to some, >>>> but I think the distinction is an important one. >>>> >>>> As for the rest of the "stop beating the horse about motd ads, they >>>> aren't a problem" argument, I'll agree to disagree - again, if for no other >>>> reason than Valve has *never* said otherwise, and I think they've >>>> brought far more damage to the *perception* of community servers than >>>> anything else - mainly due to the ease at which they will always be abused. >>>> Maybe Valve did use them (or allow them) on their servers (I've heard that >>>> before, but I've never seen a Valve server displaying a motd ad), but they >>>> are clearly not an advocate of them, or the thousands of Valve servers >>>> would be serving up those ads everyday (probably making Valve a bundle in >>>> the process). >>>> >>>> You may call it beating a dead horse, but no one here can speak for >>>> Valve but Valve - so until they actually weigh in one way or the other, >>>> your point of view is no more valid than mine. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 6:35 PM, Matthias "InstantMuffin" Kollek < >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> "Use" != "Abuse" >>>>> >>>>> But honestly, yes. Communities used to run on actual donations. Not >>>>> whatever people call donations these days to avoid paypal refunding. >>>>> If you need to resort to ads to keep going, you're either doing >>>>> something wrong, or you shouldn't be hosting servers. >>>>> I hate ads, and I don't like people supporting them. >>>>> However with the situation as it is now, it is hard to attract players >>>>> if you're not trying to be yet another Valve server (and especially if >>>>> you're trying to be as original as possible), which in return makes it >>>>> difficult in getting eventually necessary donations. Plus, who would want >>>>> to donate to a server that isn't any different from a Valve server anyway? >>>>> Valve doesn't support being different. Being original. And this is >>>>> what the real community is all about. So Valve does not want a community, >>>>> or rather does not want to put the necessary effort into it. However small >>>>> (or not?) it is. >>>>> >>>>> On 05.09.2015 00:22, Rowedahelicon wrote: >>>>> Ads didn't always used to be a problem, and why do community servers >>>>> get the rage for ads when Valve has used them too? Pinion was used for >>>>> official valve servers before. They gave Arthur a special forum rank and >>>>> I've seen posts from Valve higher ups defend the use of Pinion. >>>>> >>>>> If a community has to use ads to survive, maybe it's not doing too >>>>> well. But Valve used them as early as everyone else. Can't get mad at the >>>>> kids for following the dad's example right? Plus if a player comes on and >>>>> just hates that community, they can venture to a different one. >>>>> >>>>> We're going to wind up breeding new players who don't want to explore >>>>> the world that the players made inside of the game. >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 5:54 PM, Robert Paulson < >>>>> <[email protected]>[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> You may disagree but you are simply plain wrong. People cheating the >>>>> server browser is still rampant and it goes on without any ads. There is a >>>>> way to monetize players connecting to a server that is never going away. >>>>> And that is premium status. >>>>> >>>>> The more you keep beating this dead horse, the more you fill the >>>>> mailing list with gibberish that Valve simply doesn't care about. >>>>> >>>>> "If the problem had simply been the handful of those "paytowin" or >>>>> "premium" operators, Valve could have simply blacklisted them and solved >>>>> the problem (there were never very many server operators selling "premium" >>>>> pay2win stuff anyway).." >>>>> >>>>> That is more likely to be the problem than the ads. As mentioned over >>>>> and over again, the ads issue was completely solved by completely blocking >>>>> them when people connected through quickplay. To borrow your own >>>>> words, if the problem had simply been ads, then why didn't they do exactly >>>>> what you said? It is really easy for them to simply remove HTML motd for >>>>> everyone instead of a subset of players. >>>>> >>>>> It seems like you've never reported a server before. Valve took over 3 >>>>> months to ban 100+ server communities using fake players such as >>>>> elitepowered. That is how much they don't want to bother cleaning the >>>>> server list. They don't even want to spend 30 minutes a week, let alone a >>>>> month, doing what needs to be done. >>>>> >>>>> And there was a time when Saigns was on quickplay and they never got >>>>> banned because their modifications were never explicitly mentioned in the >>>>> quickplay document. And they probably don't want to track down every >>>>> server that has instant respawn without the tags. Because they only way >>>>> you >>>>> can verify this is by playing on each individual server. >>>>> >>>>> Having quickplay default back to community servers after a few hours >>>>> isn't asking them to change it back to how things were. New players >>>>> are guaranteed to know what a "vanilla" experience is. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>>>> please visit: >>>>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>>> please visit: >>>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>> please visit: >>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> please visit: >> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds > >
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