We should start speaking to the community instead On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 11:07 PM, E. Olsen <[email protected]> wrote:
> Because you don't use ads and your community is dying so you want to see >> if Valve can kill off whatever little competition there is left for >> community players? > > > Nothing to do with competition. I've actually never paid much attention to > what other server operators are doing as I'm more concerned what the > players are saying...and if you think that ads haven't given community > servers a bad reputation among the general player population (deserved or > not), then you haven't been paying attention. > > Why wouldn't they already flock to your servers if being ad-free was such >> a boon? > > > Yeah, this pretty much goes back to the OT of this conversion - the fact > that the default quickplay setting negatively affects ALL community > servers, regardless of how "great" they may be. > > How do you see this change bringing all the players at Saigns back to your >> servers when they don't even have ads? > > > I think you might have a bit of tunnel vision when it comes to these > Saigns folks. I've never really thought along the lines of "if this > community goes away, then mine will do better." I really don't think one > correlates to the other, as there are so many other factors involved > (geographic location, network quality, etc.). Frankly, if/when our servers > go away, a large portion of my players (who've been with us for 7+ years) > will most likely simply stop playing the game. > > This kind of behavior is why we are here in the first place. People >> thinking that whatever restrictions Valve puts in place isn't going to >> affect them, and begging for more restrictions that affects everyone but >> themselves..It makes me laugh. > > > I doubt eliminating motd ads would benefit our community directly in any > way, quite frankly. I DO, however, think it would greatly benefit the game > by removing what is perceived as a negative aspect of community servers by > a very large swath of players. It certainly wouldn't fix all of the other > perfectly valid issues you mentioned, but perception is important, and > while it might not be a boon for the funding model of some communities > (most of which, I would think, will survive just fine through donations if > they simply received equal treatment as they had in the past), it would > certainly be a good step towards restoring the perception a good many > player have of community servers. > > But I get it - some people want the ability to run ads on their servers > without restriction, and some see them as harmful overall to the future of > the game itself. Time will tell which group Valve thinks is right. > > That's if, of course, they do anything at all. If the last two years is > any indication, we're probably all talking to ourselves right now ;-) > > > > On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 10:17 PM, Robert Paulson <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> Ok and where did I make a personal attack? Unless you mean you have >> nothing to say but a personal attack. >> >> "Getting rid of motd ads might not bring community servers back, but it >> might bring players back to community servers, and that would be a step in >> the right direction." >> >> And how do you suppose it will? Because you don't use ads and your >> community is dying so you want to see if Valve can kill off whatever little >> competition there is left for community players? Why wouldn't they already >> flock to your servers if being ad-free was such a boon? How do you see >> this change bringing all the players at Saigns back to your servers when >> they don't even have ads? >> >> This kind of behavior is why we are here in the first place. People >> thinking that whatever restrictions Valve puts in place isn't going to >> affect them, and begging for more restrictions that affects everyone but >> themselves..It makes me laugh. >> >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 5:47 PM, E. Olsen <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Yeah, I'm not going take a debate into personal attacks, bud. >>> >>> Getting rid of motd ads might not bring community servers back, but it >>> might bring players back to community servers, and that would be a step in >>> the right direction. >>> >>> Feel free to have the last word advocating for them, though - we'll just >>> have to see if Valve makes a decision either way who was in the right in >>> the end. >>> >>> On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 8:20 PM, Robert Paulson <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I don't need to know more about Valve than you do. All I need is logic. >>>> >>>> Patch: MOTD blocked for all quickplay users >>>> What Happened: Quickplay users see no ads. Non-quickplay users can see >>>> ads. >>>> >>>> Patch: Quickplay defaults to official servers >>>> What Happened: Quickplay users see no ads. Non-quickplay users can see >>>> ads. >>>> >>>> In terms of ads, there is absolutely no difference. It is obvious Valve >>>> was concerned about having to police pay2win and similar mods. >>>> >>>> Even before ads existed on TF2, fake players was rampant. Saigns and >>>> Nighteam both never worried about players leaving in droves when they saw >>>> donators shooting 10x faster. And they still ended up with the most >>>> players. They did not need to worry about convincing everyone to pay. You >>>> only need 1 out of 1000 players to pay to make a profit. That's how >>>> free2play works. How late did you join TF2 that you don't even know this? >>>> >>>> With or without ads there is an incentive to cheat the system. Even now >>>> you have servers breaking the rules. This is an observable fact. This is >>>> not an opinion. >>>> >>>> So actually no. You are still wrong. And beating of the dead horse of >>>> ads isn't going to bring community servers back. Next thing you know Valve >>>> will just remove the motd and do nothing else. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 4:10 PM, E. Olsen <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> The more you keep beating this dead horse, the more you fill the >>>>>> mailing list with gibberish that Valve simply doesn't care about. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Let's not pretend that you know any more about what Valve cares about >>>>> than I do. Maybe you're right - I don't think that's the case, but then >>>>> again we'll not know unless Valve actually says once and for all "THIS is >>>>> why we made the change two years ago, and this is what we want to >>>>> prevent." >>>>> >>>>> However, there is absolutely no doubt that MOTD ads have been a >>>>> negative towards player perception of community servers. Hell, I've never >>>>> used them, nor frequented a server that does, but I have reason to hate >>>>> them if for no other reasons than I had to give up the long-standing >>>>> functionality of the MOTD window for quickplay players simply because >>>>> those >>>>> ads were being abused - yet another thing we lost because of the abuse of >>>>> others. >>>>> >>>>> Another flaw in your argument is this: >>>>> >>>>> There is a way to monetize players connecting to a server that is >>>>>> never going away. And that is premium status. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Actually, no. >>>>> >>>>> Those kinds of operators, while they certainly had/have no place in >>>>> quickplay, DID have to convince players to donate for the premium "perks" >>>>> (or whatever they call them), so players aren't monetized simply by >>>>> connecting to those server, they had to see some kind of value in giving >>>>> those servers some $$$. >>>>> >>>>> ...and frankly, I have no beef with that, as long as they are playing >>>>> by the rules, and abiding by the "Policy of Truth"/Quickplay Rules, etc. >>>>> If >>>>> there are players that find that kind of silly silly stuff fun, they >>>>> should >>>>> be able to pay for if they like. >>>>> >>>>> That's the distinction - one source of revenue encourages building >>>>> value in a server environment, the other focuses solely on attaining the >>>>> maximum possible player connections. It might be little difference to >>>>> some, >>>>> but I think the distinction is an important one. >>>>> >>>>> As for the rest of the "stop beating the horse about motd ads, they >>>>> aren't a problem" argument, I'll agree to disagree - again, if for no >>>>> other >>>>> reason than Valve has *never* said otherwise, and I think they've >>>>> brought far more damage to the *perception* of community servers than >>>>> anything else - mainly due to the ease at which they will always be >>>>> abused. >>>>> Maybe Valve did use them (or allow them) on their servers (I've heard that >>>>> before, but I've never seen a Valve server displaying a motd ad), but they >>>>> are clearly not an advocate of them, or the thousands of Valve servers >>>>> would be serving up those ads everyday (probably making Valve a bundle in >>>>> the process). >>>>> >>>>> You may call it beating a dead horse, but no one here can speak for >>>>> Valve but Valve - so until they actually weigh in one way or the other, >>>>> your point of view is no more valid than mine. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 6:35 PM, Matthias "InstantMuffin" Kollek < >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> "Use" != "Abuse" >>>>>> >>>>>> But honestly, yes. Communities used to run on actual donations. Not >>>>>> whatever people call donations these days to avoid paypal refunding. >>>>>> If you need to resort to ads to keep going, you're either doing >>>>>> something wrong, or you shouldn't be hosting servers. >>>>>> I hate ads, and I don't like people supporting them. >>>>>> However with the situation as it is now, it is hard to attract >>>>>> players if you're not trying to be yet another Valve server (and >>>>>> especially >>>>>> if you're trying to be as original as possible), which in return makes it >>>>>> difficult in getting eventually necessary donations. Plus, who would want >>>>>> to donate to a server that isn't any different from a Valve server >>>>>> anyway? >>>>>> Valve doesn't support being different. Being original. And this is >>>>>> what the real community is all about. So Valve does not want a community, >>>>>> or rather does not want to put the necessary effort into it. However >>>>>> small >>>>>> (or not?) it is. >>>>>> >>>>>> On 05.09.2015 00:22, Rowedahelicon wrote: >>>>>> Ads didn't always used to be a problem, and why do community servers >>>>>> get the rage for ads when Valve has used them too? Pinion was used for >>>>>> official valve servers before. They gave Arthur a special forum rank and >>>>>> I've seen posts from Valve higher ups defend the use of Pinion. >>>>>> >>>>>> If a community has to use ads to survive, maybe it's not doing too >>>>>> well. But Valve used them as early as everyone else. Can't get mad at the >>>>>> kids for following the dad's example right? Plus if a player comes on and >>>>>> just hates that community, they can venture to a different one. >>>>>> >>>>>> We're going to wind up breeding new players who don't want to explore >>>>>> the world that the players made inside of the game. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Sep 4, 2015 at 5:54 PM, Robert Paulson < >>>>>> <[email protected]>[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> You may disagree but you are simply plain wrong. People cheating the >>>>>> server browser is still rampant and it goes on without any ads. There is >>>>>> a >>>>>> way to monetize players connecting to a server that is never going away. >>>>>> And that is premium status. >>>>>> >>>>>> The more you keep beating this dead horse, the more you fill the >>>>>> mailing list with gibberish that Valve simply doesn't care about. >>>>>> >>>>>> "If the problem had simply been the handful of those "paytowin" or >>>>>> "premium" operators, Valve could have simply blacklisted them and solved >>>>>> the problem (there were never very many server operators selling >>>>>> "premium" >>>>>> pay2win stuff anyway).." >>>>>> >>>>>> That is more likely to be the problem than the ads. As mentioned over >>>>>> and over again, the ads issue was completely solved by completely >>>>>> blocking >>>>>> them when people connected through quickplay. To borrow your own >>>>>> words, if the problem had simply been ads, then why didn't they do >>>>>> exactly >>>>>> what you said? It is really easy for them to simply remove HTML motd for >>>>>> everyone instead of a subset of players. >>>>>> >>>>>> It seems like you've never reported a server before. Valve took over >>>>>> 3 months to ban 100+ server communities using fake players such as >>>>>> elitepowered. That is how much they don't want to bother cleaning the >>>>>> server list. They don't even want to spend 30 minutes a week, let alone a >>>>>> month, doing what needs to be done. >>>>>> >>>>>> And there was a time when Saigns was on quickplay and they never got >>>>>> banned because their modifications were never explicitly mentioned in the >>>>>> quickplay document. And they probably don't want to track down every >>>>>> server that has instant respawn without the tags. Because they only way >>>>>> you >>>>>> can verify this is by playing on each individual server. >>>>>> >>>>>> Having quickplay default back to community servers after a few hours >>>>>> isn't asking them to change it back to how things were. New players >>>>>> are guaranteed to know what a "vanilla" experience is. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list >>>>>> archives, please visit: >>>>>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>>>> please visit: >>>>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>>> please visit: >>>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>> please visit: >>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> please visit: >> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > -- *Matthew (Rowedahelicon) Robinson* Web Designer / Artist / Writer Website - http://www.rowedahelicon.com/
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