It's not clear at all. Depends upon who you ask. It's a typical language-dialect problem.
I do know that, the Saraiki community in Pakistan has also been demanding a separate Saraikistan. So, for the community it's pretty much a separate language. If you are asking my opinion then even Punjabi and Western Punjabi Wikipedias should have been one Wikipedia with two scripts (maybe a third script as well). Even Hindi-Urdu for that matter. It's always the socio-political reasons. As per Wikipedia: *Saraiki was considered a dialect of Punjabi <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punjabi_dialects> by most British colonial <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Raj> administrators,[29] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saraiki_language#cite_note-FOOTNOTERahman1996173-32> and is still seen as such by many Punjabis <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punjabis>.[30] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saraiki_language#cite_note-FOOTNOTEShackle2014a-33> Saraikis, however, consider it a language in its own right[31] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saraiki_language#cite_note-34> and see the use of the term "dialect" as stigmatising <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_stigma>.[32] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saraiki_language#cite_note-FOOTNOTERahman1996175-35> A language movement was started in the 1960s to standardise a script and promote the language.[20] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saraiki_language#cite_note-FOOTNOTEShackle1977-22>[33] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saraiki_language#cite_note-FOOTNOTERahman1997838-36> * Best Satdeep On Mon, 21 Oct, 2019, 9:20 AM MF-Warburg, <[email protected]> wrote: > > While there may be a close similarity to Western Punjabi, I agree with > Steven's point that the right time to bring that issue up would have been > when we decided whether to mark the language as eligible. We *did* mark > it as eligible (by Satdeep just over 2 years ago), and that has to mean > something. To walk back on that now, after volunteers have spent hundreds > and hundreds of hours working on it, is just not ok. > > I disagree with this notion. > One of the tasks of the Language Committee is precisely to prevent new > "Serbo-Croation" cases from happening. It has been suggested that this > might be such a case here. So let us please discuss this issue and clear it > up. I have done some reading and it seems to me that there might be enough > differences between Saraiki and Western Punjabi anyway. But Satdeep brought > up that that might not be the case, and on the request page there are also > people who says that it's not a separate language (while others, of course, > say the opposite). > I just would like this to be clarified in order not to have a situation in > several years where everyone acknowledges that it is most unfortunate that > there are several wikis... > > (It is also a matter of fact that languages get marked as eligible all the > time without a discussion, just because the majority of cases don't turn > out to be problematic at all. I looked at the archives and saw that back > then, Satdeep said on this list "There is some controversy regarding this > but according to my analysis, it should be eligible." - That does not > directly contradict his statement "Western Punjabi and Saraiki are pretty > similar and my personal view is that this should be accommodated on one > Wikipedia but the sociology-political situation in Pakistan calls for a > separate Wikipedia for Saraiki." from 8 October, but I still would *love *to > have the whole thing clarified as requested on 16 Oct. > Back in 2017, Oliver Stegen said in reply to the mentioned mail: "Any > controversies may come to ight and be discussed accordingly during the > verification phase which has started now." and I agree with this; a random > marking as eligible should not prevent a discussion about what the > situation really is.) > [Mails from 29 + 30 August 2017] > > > Am So., 20. Okt. 2019 um 05:30 Uhr schrieb Jon Harald Søby < > [email protected]>: > >> I finally heard back from the first person [1] I emailed now, and he >> basically echoed what Satdeep said: All pages he checked, except the one I >> mentioned in the first email, are in Saraiki. >> >> While there may be a close similarity to Western Punjabi, I agree with >> Steven's point that the right time to bring that issue up would have been >> when we decided whether to mark the language as eligible. We *did* mark >> it as eligible (by Satdeep just over 2 years ago), and that has to mean >> something. To walk back on that now, after volunteers have spent hundreds >> and hundreds of hours working on it, is just not ok. >> >> Therefore I would like to officially propose that we approve the Saraiki >> Wikipedia, as they meet all of our criteria. >> >> [1] I'll be happy to disclose his name and details on the private list if >> anyone on the committee wants me to, but I don't want to do so here on the >> public list since I never brought that up with him. >> >> ons. 16. okt. 2019 kl. 18:04 skrev Jon Harald Søby <[email protected]>: >> >>> I have not gotten a reply yet. Yesterday I emailed to more people from >>> Pakistani universities with Saraiki departments, but no reply from any if >>> them yet either. >>> >>> ons. 16. okt. 2019, 16:29 skrev Steven White <[email protected]>: >>> >>>> Have we heard from the expert yet? >>>> >>>> On a related subject: Do we have any Wiktionary experts here? Saraiki >>>> Wiktionary is also now approvable in theory (assuming that the language >>>> issue on the Wikipedia clears). My concern about the Saraiki Wiktionary is >>>> only that compared to a lot of Wiktionary projects, this one appears pretty >>>> basic to me: just a straight Saraiki dictionary, with little in the way of >>>> bells and whistles (pronunciation, translations to other languages, etc.). >>>> But that's just based on the gross appearance of pages, as I do not read >>>> Saraiki (or any other language written in Perso-Arabic script). So Satdeep >>>> and anyone else: Does the content look ok? Are there greater expectations >>>> of what a Wiktionary should contain—expectations we have not communicated, >>>> I will add—or is this project appropriate and acceptable? >>>> >>>> Steven >>>> >>>> Sent from Outlook <http://aka.ms/weboutlook> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *From:* Langcom <[email protected]> on behalf of Jon >>>> Harald Søby <[email protected]> >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, October 10, 2019 3:38 PM >>>> *To:* Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee < >>>> [email protected]> >>>> *Subject:* Re: [Langcom] Wikipedia in Saraiki >>>> >>>> I am still waiting to hear back from the expert. If he says the rest of >>>> the pages look fine, then I think we can move forward – Steven makes some >>>> good points as usual. >>>> >>>> tor. 10. okt. 2019 kl. 21:03 skrev Gerard Meijssen < >>>> [email protected]>: >>>> >>>> Hoi, >>>> The final stage is that we verify if the language it is said to be. >>>> When we find it is not or are not certain we have all the room to seek >>>> another authority to move forward. At this stage it becomes confusing and I >>>> am not convinced at all that we should. >>>> Thanks, >>>> GerardM >>>> >>>> On Thu, 10 Oct 2019 at 19:21, Steven White <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> This is effectively the same problem as we saw in the discussion of >>>> Montenegrin Wikipedia—although since all but two of us are from Europe, >>>> North America or Israel, we feel more confident making calls in a case like >>>> Montenegrin than we do here. (And, candidly, there is less chance in the >>>> Montenegrin case of being accused of racism/Euro-centrism, even if that >>>> accusation would be totally without merit in this case.) >>>> >>>> But as I said back then, the rule as currently written is fine when the >>>> language area starts with a clean slate. If there were no Western Punjabi >>>> Wikipedia now, we could reasonably try to get a single project to try to >>>> accommodate both Western Punjabi and Saraiki. (Whether that effort would be >>>> successful is a different question, but we could try.) However, I take >>>> Satdeep's comment below to indicate that there would be serious problems >>>> trying to integrate a new Saraiki-language community into a ten-year old >>>> Western Punjabi-language community, and that he recommends against it, >>>> based on the current "facts on the ground". Besides, to some extent the >>>> time to say "no" has passed, since Satdeep marked the project as "eligible" >>>> in 2017. So I think we need to move forward with this. >>>> >>>> Steven >>>> >>>> Sent from Outlook >>>> <https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Faka.ms%2Fweboutlook&data=02%7C01%7C%7C27b14763c84b4b786fe808d74db9839a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637063331479640783&sdata=%2Be5t%2F8MN7boQ1F1ZLIYwwDG0L5Y2w685G48TmpiTLN8%3D&reserved=0> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *From:* Langcom <[email protected]> on behalf of Jon >>>> Harald Søby <[email protected]> >>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 9, 2019 4:44 AM >>>> *To:* Wikimedia Foundation Language Committee < >>>> [email protected]> >>>> *Subject:* Re: [Langcom] Wikipedia in Saraiki >>>> >>>> ... >>>> >>>> As for the Western Punjabi/Saraiki issue, I don't know enough about >>>> that to have any opinion either way. >>>> >>>> tir. 8. okt. 2019 kl. 19:00 skrev Satdeep Gill <[email protected]>: >>>> >>>> ... >>>> >>>> P.S. Western Punjabi and Saraiki are pretty similar and my personal >>>> view is that this should be accommodated on one Wikipedia but the >>>> sociology-political situation in Pakistan calls for a separate Wikipedia >>>> for Saraiki. >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> Satdeep Gill >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Langcom mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom >>>> <https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.wikimedia.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flangcom&data=02%7C01%7C%7C27b14763c84b4b786fe808d74db9839a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637063331479640783&sdata=vRDOwHRLv%2B6qFNok%2BLJNeiRAFrzuBWGo6pRn1BO1%2B9g%3D&reserved=0> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Langcom mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom >>>> <https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.wikimedia.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Flangcom&data=02%7C01%7C%7C27b14763c84b4b786fe808d74db9839a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637063331479650791&sdata=XOi5ymt%2Fz8fi71Oltu04freVjNcHF97HV0YlMZsR4p4%3D&reserved=0> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> mvh >>>> Jon Harald Søby >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Langcom mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom >>>> >>> >> >> -- >> mvh >> Jon Harald Søby >> _______________________________________________ >> Langcom mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom >> > _______________________________________________ > Langcom mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom >
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