Let me refute the below by starting with number 2 and 4- We the
people would mean at least all the adult land owners at the time
of the founding of the states and at the founding of the
constitution,who at the time were not crimnally agressive.That being
the least condition for We the people, We the People did not in fact
give consent to the states for authority to set state borders much
less join in a federation of all the states to form a
union.
1. Shedding blood in a fight can be a good thing and it can be a
bad thing, shedding blood in and of itself does not justfy forcing
all land owners in a giving area to give up their sovereignty to the
state or federal
government.
Many who shed blood in conflicts did not do so to give
sovereign authority to a state or federal government, many who
fought volunterly did so to protect their familes, their land, their
friends and their
liberty.
Before the Constitution, even before the Articles of
Confederation many fought to have independent states, many who fought
did not approve of the constitution, in fact the constitution was a
secession from the Articles of Condeferation until all of the state
government volunterly agreed to join the constitution. Before the
civil war many were forced to train with the state miltia units or
pay a tax so thus many were under involuntary servitude when they did
fight even before the Draft became
manatory.
Three doesn't mean much without the
others.
Governments serve a useful purpose but government in the Anglo-
American world is not looked on as a Continental Roman civil law
single unit, it is a seperation of duties, generally it is said to be
three governments, the excutive, the legislative and the courts but
in fact it is seperated more than that, there is also the Grand Jury
and the Petit jury which is seperate than the appointed or elected
judges, so that is at least 5 governments on the federal level, 6
governments when counting both the US House and the US Senate. At
the state level for the most you have the above 6 plus some states
have various elected commisoners and some have a seperate elected
Liet.
governor.
In my County of 12,000 people we have several elected officals
that does not have to obey the orders of the county mayor or county
commisoners, we have a county clerk, a trustee, a sheriff, a
constible for each of the 5 districts, a road comminsoner, a school
superientent, a school board member for each of the 5 districts, a
registar of deeds, the property tax asseor, the commisoner of
purchase and finance, an elected county judge, an elected county
court clerk plus we have 2 county commisoners for each district. So
if you count the school board as one government, the county
comission as one government, the grand jury as one, the peit jury as
one plus all the seperate other elected officals as 1 my county has
if my counting is right 14 seperate governments all with the ablity
to interpret the US and state constitution and if legistion or
regulations fit with the constitutions or natural law within their
define duties, Grand juries and petit juries having the broadest duty
of them all. The Constitutions trumps federal and state legislation,
regulation and multinational treaties, natural law trumps them all.---
In [email protected], "Paul" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 1. The lines aren't "imaginary". They are real and tangible and
paid
> for with blood.
>
> 2. We the People gave the state control over those lines.
>
> 3. Markets have always referred to the buying and selling of goods
in
> a particular area. This is true of any definition.
>
> 4. The government was given control of the borders and protection
of
> the markets when the government was created by "We the people" and
as
> long as we have a government (as long as there are people), it will
> retain control of such.
>
> 5. See the U.S. Constitution.
>
>
>
> --- In [email protected], "Thomas L. Knapp"
> <thomaslknapp@> wrote:
> >
> > Quoth Paul Ireland:
> >
> > > 1. You own your property. Nobody has disputed that.
> > >
> > > 2. You have the right to move your property unless it's across
> > > national borders in which case, you pay purchase the PRIVILEGE.
> >
> > How did the state acquire legitimate ownership of these imaginary
> > lines on the ground such that it is entitled to determine who may
or
> > may not move themselves or their goods over those imaginary lines?
> >
> > > 4. A market does not exist for the period of time it takes for
one
> > > person to sell a good or service to another. The term "market"
is
> > > used to describe buying and selling within a particular
location.
> >
> > That is one definition of "market." There are others -- and yours
does
> > not accord with the usual libertarian understanding of the term.
Most
> > libertarians define "market" in the larger sense of "THE market"
i.e.
> > "the world of commercial activity where goods and services are
bought
> > and sold" (WordNet) and any transaction which takes place in the
> > context of "THE market," rather than in the geographical sense
of "a
> > particular marketplace."
> >
> > > And
> > > if you sell within that location (in this case within the
borders of
> > > that country) you are subject to the rules of that market (aka
the
> > > laws) and you must pay a fee for the protection of the market
and
> > > access to the market for your goods.
> >
> > How did the state come into legitimate possession of an exclusive
> > contract for protection of, or ownership of access routes to, a
> > particular marketplace?
> >
> > > You
> > > don't have a right to sell your property in my yard. My
charging you
> > > to sell it in my yard is not an infringement of your property
rights
> > > even if someone else wants to buy your goods.
> >
> > Where is the state's "yard" and what is its claim to legitimate
> > ownership of that "yard?"
> >
> > Tom Knapp
> >
>
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